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Post by tomlivesforever on Sept 18, 2017 10:14:49 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts. I think Oasis is a bit different because the character/spirit played a big part in their success. Nobody is saying songwriting isn't important and fundamental. Are there really Oasis fans who don't acknowledge and respect Noel's input? I don't think so. It's just that acknowledgement doesn't always transform into adoration, is it such a big problem? Idolism does exist. Some idolize Liam some idolize Noel and some idolize neither but only care about music, they are ALL FINE. I don't see any position is superior to the other two. Another excellent post.
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Post by glider on Sept 18, 2017 10:14:53 GMT -5
I think FWIW is a good solid song and it's getting better all the time to me. It's a song that if you are a Liam fan you'll appreciate the message he's wanting to get across with it, and if you aren't, you'll probably find the faults with it you want to.After all, if you want to like someones music, or dont want to, theres usually a different outcome. you can still be a liam fan while not liking everything he makes or does... Don't burst his bubble! You need a lie down!
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Post by RocketMan on Sept 18, 2017 10:23:38 GMT -5
the liam vs. noel debate on live4ever is our own godwins law. fascinating ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/7QKGdm487eYnX65W8w0g.gif)
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Post by andymorris on Sept 18, 2017 10:32:59 GMT -5
the liam vs. noel debate on live4ever is our own godwins law. fascinating ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/7QKGdm487eYnX65W8w0g.gif) Are you short Mr Korean dictator ? It's for another debate we are having on another thread.
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Post by sgtpeppr on Sept 18, 2017 10:39:03 GMT -5
the liam vs. noel debate on live4ever is our own godwins law. fascinating Are you short Mr Korean dictator ? It's for another debate we are having on another thread. hes taller than shaq and as strong as a bear.
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Post by Doc Lobster on Sept 18, 2017 10:53:18 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
I think someone said it above: Liam can turn an average track into something worth listening to, but he can't save a bad song. Same with Elvis or any other great performer. You can't polish up a turd. That's why all the stuff on the charts is so insipid, no real effort is put in the composition.
In the mid-90s, the combination of Noel's songwriting and arrangement abilities with Liam's vocals was just magical, and both started losing their magic around the turn of the century. Noel returned to form with his solo stuff and it looks like Liam's voice has improved a lot and all he is missing is the songs in my opinion. So far I'm not impressed with the MOR stuff his professional songwriters have given him (save Chinatown which is ok). I think he's playing it safe (or, rather, Warner is), which is understandable after the Beady Eye debacle, but perhaps it's a bit rich of him to criticise others for making "beige" or "boring" music after a track like FWIW. Hopefully this album cycle and tour will give him the confidence to continue on the solo path and be more musically ambitious the next time around. Nobody's wishing for him to fail, on the contrary, it would be perfect as Oasis fans to have the two brothers churning out great music every two or three years. It would be the best possible outcome, as the 90s are never going to be back and a reunion would be toxic.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts. I agree with basically everything in this post. It's almost exactly the same way I think about it. Except for the Russian aristocrat. Who might that be? Igor Stravinsky.
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Post by ricardogce on Sept 18, 2017 10:55:50 GMT -5
Younger Britney Spears is a definite crush of mine. Thanks.
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 11:00:56 GMT -5
I think FWIW is a good solid song and it's getting better all the time to me. It's a song that if you are a Liam fan you'll appreciate the message he's wanting to get across with it, and if you aren't, you'll probably find the faults with it you want to.After all, if you want to like someones music, or dont want to, theres usually a different outcome. you can still be a liam fan while not liking everything he makes or does... Completely missing the point again to make a cliched Live4ever comment.
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 11:03:12 GMT -5
If you like For What It's Worth or Beady Eye then you must just love everything Liam does because the more musically educated with such a wealth of knowledge and diverse taste in music have told us that song is a cliched John Lennon song and his previous band clearly never had a decent song because they didnt sell the amounts of albums Noel's well marketed yawn fest did.
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Post by glider on Sept 18, 2017 11:15:25 GMT -5
If you like For What It's Worth or Beady Eye then you must just love everything Liam does because the more musically educated with such a wealth of knowledge and diverse taste in music have told us that song is a cliched John Lennon song and his previous band clearly never had a decent song because they didnt sell the amounts of albums Noel's well marketed yawn fest did. There's so many things wrongly said in this post but I'll try my best. When there's a majority consensus that the song sounds like something heavily influenced by 'Mind Games' then yes, it is my right to state I feel its a boring cliche John Lennon mess of a song, whether you agree or not. Also, if you were referencing me, when did I say Beady Eye never had a decent song? I like BE - while hit and miss there's great tracks from those sessions. Never claimed to have a wealth of knowledge btw - and what's wrong with having diverse taste? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/A9bL_RjIN9bOhnrQxKjN.gif)
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Post by batfink30 on Sept 18, 2017 11:15:31 GMT -5
The whole Liam V Noel shit makes me sleep.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Sept 18, 2017 11:22:30 GMT -5
The whole Liam V Noel shit makes me sleep. Did you sleep type that?
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Post by sgtpeppr on Sept 18, 2017 11:24:36 GMT -5
you can still be a liam fan while not liking everything he makes or does... Completely missing the point again to make a cliched Live4ever comment. again?! i knew i shouldnt have engaged you. i'll stay out of it from now...
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 11:27:35 GMT -5
If you like For What It's Worth or Beady Eye then you must just love everything Liam does because the more musically educated with such a wealth of knowledge and diverse taste in music have told us that song is a cliched John Lennon song and his previous band clearly never had a decent song because they didnt sell the amounts of albums Noel's well marketed yawn fest did. There's so many things wrongly said in this post but I'll try my best. When there's a majority consensus that the song sounds like something heavily influenced by 'Mind Games' then yes, it is my right to state I feel its a boring cliche John Lennon mess of a song, whether you agree or not. Also, if you were referencing me, when did I say Beady Eye never had a decent song? I like BE - while hit and miss there's great tracks from those sessions. Never claimed to have a wealth of knowledge btw - and what's wrong with having diverse taste? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/A9bL_RjIN9bOhnrQxKjN.gif) So because people on here said it sounds like something off Mind Games, it is a cliched mess? It's the idea that if you like Liam you DON'T have a diverse taste in music which pisses me off.
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 11:28:48 GMT -5
Completely missing the point again to make a cliched Live4ever comment. again?! i knew i shouldnt have engaged you. i'll stay out of it from now... Haha brilliant. This is starting to remind me of everyone who is making out Jim Carrey to be mad lately.
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Post by glider on Sept 18, 2017 11:31:43 GMT -5
There's so many things wrongly said in this post but I'll try my best. When there's a majority consensus that the song sounds like something heavily influenced by 'Mind Games' then yes, it is my right to state I feel its a boring cliche John Lennon mess of a song, whether you agree or not. Also, if you were referencing me, when did I say Beady Eye never had a decent song? I like BE - while hit and miss there's great tracks from those sessions. Never claimed to have a wealth of knowledge btw - and what's wrong with having diverse taste? ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/A9bL_RjIN9bOhnrQxKjN.gif) So because people on here said it sounds like something off Mind Games, it is a cliched mess? It's the idea that if you like Liam you DON'T have a diverse taste in music which pisses me off. You can interpret the Mind Games influence however you want - you may like that in your case or you don't in mine. Universally we all agree that FWIW has strong Mind Games influences and from there opinions diverge. I don't know where you get the idea that people say if you Like Liam's solo output you don't have diverse taste - I certainly never said that. If people here are saying it, then they're wrong to make that assumption.
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Post by carlober on Sept 18, 2017 11:35:24 GMT -5
Just because you sing your own songs, doesn't mean they come out well. Look at Bob Dylan
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 11:36:56 GMT -5
Just because you sing your own songs, doesn't mean they come out well. Look at Bob DylanMay i add that, that was a very tongue in cheek comment
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Post by RocketMan on Sept 18, 2017 11:41:24 GMT -5
Are you short Mr Korean dictator ? It's for another debate we are having on another thread. hes taller than shaq and as strong as a bear. you're right. i'll give you north koreas very own 'dennis rodman foreign relation award'.
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Post by ricardogce on Sept 18, 2017 11:42:54 GMT -5
The whole Liam V Noel shit makes me sleep. Sleepwalk away your life if that turns you on...
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Post by sgtpeppr on Sept 18, 2017 12:00:14 GMT -5
hes taller than shaq and as strong as a bear. you're right. i'll give you north koreas very own 'dennis rodman foreign relation award'. germany and north korea, working together at last...
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Post by spaneli on Sept 18, 2017 12:43:11 GMT -5
Reading from page 3 on was an amazing journey that I already knew the beginning-middle-and end of before it even started.
I think Noel's a fantastic songwriter, but I do think it's an oversimplification that Noel could and couldn't have pushed his songs. I think Noel could have pushed his songs, mainly because from what we know of Oasis' early history, Noel did have connections. Oasis weren't some simple Manchester band that got plucked from obscurity. So I think Noel could have made those connections work to some degree. However, Noel got on a legit run as a songwriter, and much of that comes from testing and experimenting in the confines of a band-in an environment with little pressure. I don't think people know how lucky Noel was to be in that situation. It's a different beast when you're in a band with little to no pressure rather than a professional songwriter (queue Be Here Now) Also, who knows how many songs Noel wrote specifically for Liam's voice, and it's infinitely easier to write when you're writing for a specific voice. I think Liam and Oasis in general put Noel in a prime position to write his best material, much of which would not have materialized without them. And much of which may not have had the same impact otherwise. So Liam and Oasis had a major impact on Noel, and that's without factoring Liam's ability to elevate songs.
In terms of people hoping for Liam to fail, I think it's a cop out to tell people to go back and look at past threads for hints and clues. If this discussion is going to continually come up about "certain" users than be specific. Message them. If not, then come off it. Because it's weak to expect any mod to do anything about it, or to sift through dozens of threads over a period of 8 years for something that seems like an ambiguous gripe. It seems weak to continually complain about something, and then when asked to be specific, it becomes a treasure hunt.
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Post by batfink30 on Sept 18, 2017 13:25:17 GMT -5
The whole Liam V Noel shit makes me sleep. Did you sleep type that? I sleep wanked it out.
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Post by matt on Sept 18, 2017 14:04:50 GMT -5
Music. It's about the music. Not image, not charisma, but the pure bare bones songwriting which is the most important element of greatness. If that's not important to you, leave Oasis alone and go ahead and listen to Catpish, Viva Brother The Enemy or Kasabian. I could sing Oasis songs in my diabolical singing voice, and even then, most folk would recognise they are great songs. If the singers performance is the most important element of what makes a band great, and not it's songwriting, then something is amiss and there is a severe lack of substance in the music. But the facts speak for themselves with regards to Oasis. Noel Gallagher wrote Live Forever. Game, set, match. I'm going to have to disagree with this notion that great songwriting is always the core element of greatness. When it comes to ballad/anthem driven bands that were sprouted up during the 90s Britpop renaissance it absolutely made or broke songs - but the way those songs were sung had a massive impact as well - one that could elevate songs from having lyrical mastery to become pop perfection. The vocalist is so important to a track - when you hear Blur, Damon's vocals have a audible impact immediately that reel you into the song - as does Liam (at least in the 90s for me). Everything after that is for the listener to properly digest - the songwriting can hit you as brilliant, but then again there will be the arrangement of the mix that makes the experience of listening to the song all the more enticing! I know I always bring up Verve as they're arguably my favorite band, but I can tell you after listening to it so many times, as with their earlier EPs and singles, that A Storm In Heaven isn't a masterpiece because of the songwriting - which is hit and miss on it. Leckie's ethereal mix, Nick's guitars, the jazz arrangements and the brillant fusion of multiple genres make those songs classics - not songwriting. It's like when I see Ashcroft saying "See You In The Next One is like my first written song - it showed me the potential I had" ....uh no Richard. See You In The Next One's lyrics are good - melancholic and simple, but the best thing about that song is Leckie's mix with the atomspheric acoustic guitar and reverb space echo piano. The vocals and his lyrics are a great addition, but was not the core element to why that song is great. Basically I'm saying is there is many things that makes a song great, and songwriting is always an important element, but will not always be the make or break one. A song with dull lyrics can get elevated to a good one by masterful musicianship. I totally agree with your argument there glider, but I'm talking in the context of Oasis where conventional pop song structure is the bread and butter of what makes them great, as opposed to awe inspiring sonic soundscapes ala early The Verve. I absolutely love Sigur Ros which your argument certainly applies to but these acts rely on vivid and imaginative soundscapes to be great. Oasis are at the opposite end of the spectrum where they stick to a rigid structure in which melody is the priority. That's a narrow definition with regards to Oasis, and that is what we are measuring them by. It worked magnificently back in the day when Noel was a melodic genius, but that stopped being the case in the early 2000s with melody becoming stale and the song structures becoming tedious. The stubborn and rigid methods by which he wrote songs should have forced him out of the conventional song structures which were a creative straitjacket on the man and prompted an exploration of different ideas to conjure up a new sense of creativity. Barring a handful of belters in the 21st century, he's been inhibited ever since. Which is why I hope he's thrown them off for this forthcoming album.
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Post by matt on Sept 18, 2017 14:10:19 GMT -5
For What It's Worth is Mind Games for pre-schoolers. Bland, beige, inoffensive - ironically all the insults Liam throws out to other acts.
Where's the confrontation and snarl of Wall of Glass or the more understated mystical and melancholy qualities of Chinatown? FWIW is just pseudo-bleeding heart Robbie Williams style cheesy naffness packaged up in Pretty Green clothing to deter others from that harsh fact. Derivative and naff to the extreme, it would fit nicely in Beady Eye and is probably a Gem Archer wet dream of a tune, but is a big drop in quality from the previous two songs. Let's hope the rest of the album does not follow suit.
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