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Post by ricardogce on Sept 18, 2017 7:32:20 GMT -5
Max Martin wrote Hit Me One More Time. I wonder how big a hit it would have been had it been him singing it on the record. Lots of people seem to miss the point of Acquiesce on purpose. ![P-)](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/aISM4jCl_eWjI5L9xvHU.gif) maybe Max Martin is a good singer who knows ? But i dont believe he wears the schoolgirl costume as well as Britney used to. In all seriousness, songwriting and performing go hand in hand. but i understand the point of view from mattydd. I too value songwriting way more than singing because it requires more dedication, hard work and focus. It also puts more pressure on the guy responsible for it, coz you gotta deliver 20 songs every two years. it's way harder to be a songwriter. Singing is just showing up and nailing the tune in a take or two. + a singer would not exist without a songwriter. The opposite being untrue (although it would be less good...). Just like everything else, its a good (heathen) chemistry that creates something unique and out of this world. It wouldn't have wanted Oasis without Liam. But i'm glad Noel made it solo, coz he's got it all. Liam also got it all, but doesn't believe in his songwriting. Are you having a laugh? If I said "singing takes talent, energy, and dedication. Songwriting is just stringing notes together, and maybe a stolen riff or two" I'd be just as wrong as you are.
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Post by The Escapist on Sept 18, 2017 7:35:15 GMT -5
Younger Britney Spears is a definite crush of mine. Thanks.
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Post by matt on Sept 18, 2017 7:37:08 GMT -5
I don't think matt is dismissing Liam contribution to Oasis greatness. He just reminds that the songs, melodies were already there. I wouldn't have loved Oasis as much as I do without Liam's vocals. The guy has got to be my favourite singer of all the time. His vocals on the 90's albums are outstanding, he sounds like a nightingale on some songs (Slide Away, Listen Up, Rockin' Chair, etc). But he wasn't singing over average tunes, he was singing over already PERFECT pop songs. He totally fulfilled the potential of those songs, thing Noel couldn't really do at the time cos' he was just an alright singer, but the songs were already fuckin' amazing ! Proof there, no vocals, just a piano letting the melody shines. At the end of the day Oasis was Liam + Noel, Noel + Liam, the mix between the best melodist and the best singer of the 90's. Put that into words perfectly. Spot on. Folk should listen to this and tell me that isn't a great tune.
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Sept 18, 2017 7:38:24 GMT -5
I don't think matt is dismissing Liam contribution to Oasis greatness. He just reminds that the songs, melodies were already there. I wouldn't have loved Oasis as much as I do without Liam's vocals. The guy has got to be my favourite singer of all the time. His vocals on the 90's albums are outstanding, he sounds like a nightingale on some songs (Slide Away, Listen Up, Rockin' Chair, etc). But he wasn't singing over average tunes, he was singing over already PERFECT pop songs. He totally fulfilled the potential of those songs, thing Noel couldn't really do at the time cos' he was just an alright singer, but the songs were already fuckin' amazing ! Proof there, no vocals, just a piano letting the melody shines. At the end of the day Oasis was Liam + Noel, Noel + Liam, the mix between the best melodist and the best singer of the 90's. Agree. They complimented each other. Noel had great songs, but as a singer wasn't that great (bar the obvious exceptions). Liam's voice made those songs. However, without Noel they wouldn't have been as big as they were either. I mean, The Rain weren't exactly going anywhere, were they ![P-)](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/aISM4jCl_eWjI5L9xvHU.gif)
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Post by Rolo on Sept 18, 2017 7:44:09 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here is saying Live Forever or any other song Noel wrote during that time is average and made great by Liam. They complimented each other perfectly, Noel's songwriting is undeniably amazing but I personally feel they were made in to classics by Liam's vocals. You can have the best song in the world but if it's not delivered properly it isn't going to reach it's potential.
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Post by mancraider on Sept 18, 2017 7:55:40 GMT -5
I don't think matt is dismissing Liam contribution to Oasis greatness. He just reminds that the songs, melodies were already there. I wouldn't have loved Oasis as much as I do without Liam's vocals. The guy has got to be my favourite singer of all the time. His vocals on the 90's albums are outstanding, he sounds like a nightingale on some songs (Slide Away, Listen Up, Rockin' Chair, etc). But he wasn't singing over average tunes, he was singing over already PERFECT pop songs. He totally fulfilled the potential of those songs, thing Noel couldn't really do at the time cos' he was just an alright singer, but the songs were already fuckin' amazing ! Proof there, no vocals, just a piano letting the melody shines. At the end of the day Oasis was Liam + Noel, Noel + Liam, the mix between the best melodist and the best singer of the 90's. He's entitled to his opinion about that as much as the next man, I was responding to him telling me to fuck off and listen to other bands because I don't have any interest in noel as a performer. I haven't dissed noel here, just gave my opinion, and I don't go onto the noel sections of this forum and constantly troll for attention. As I said earlier I was just reacting to the attitude on here that you can't be a real oasis fan if you prefer one to the other. It's expressed pretty condescendingly on here at times and pretty much exclusively towards people that like liam more. Real life is far more complicated than that. Anyway no point going round in circles, I've got a kitchen to fit. Been an interesting discussion nevertheless. Laters.
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Post by andymorris on Sept 18, 2017 7:59:03 GMT -5
I don't think anyone here is saying Live Forever or any other song Noel wrote during that time is average and made great by Liam. They complimented each other perfectly, Noel's songwriting is undeniably amazing but I personally feel they were made in to classics by Liam's vocals. You can have the best song in the world but if it's not delivered properly it isn't going to reach it's potential. Absolutely, but one could still exist without the other, although in a lesser good form. So in a way, songwriting will always be more important. Give a shit song to sing to Liam, it'll always be a shit song, no matter how amazing he is. But he can transform an average song into something listenable, as he did with tunes from Gem and Andy. There three important part in the process of making a record : writing, performance and production. If those 3 work, then you got a classic. One is missing, and it's a failure. But the basis of it all will always be writing.
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Post by andymorris on Sept 18, 2017 8:02:35 GMT -5
lubeck i suggest if you dont know the record already: The Royal Philarmonic Orchestra plays the music of Oasis It's a superb record and shows the quality of Noel's tunes sounds like something out of Austin Powers or record made by Burt Bacharach in the 60s.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 9:06:18 GMT -5
lubeck i suggest if you dont know the record already: The Royal Philarmonic Orchestra plays the music of Oasis It's a superb record and shows the quality of Noel's tunes sounds like something out of Austin Powers or record made by Burt Bacharach in the 60s. Yes, already know it. I also quite like their Supersonic, Some Might Say and She's Electric versions.
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Post by Doc Lobster on Sept 18, 2017 9:13:11 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
I think someone said it above: Liam can turn an average track into something worth listening to, but he can't save a bad song. Same with Elvis or any other great performer. You can't polish up a turd. That's why all the stuff on the charts is so insipid, no real effort is put in the composition.
In the mid-90s, the combination of Noel's songwriting and arrangement abilities with Liam's vocals was just magical, and both started losing their magic around the turn of the century. Noel returned to form with his solo stuff and it looks like Liam's voice has improved a lot and all he is missing is the songs in my opinion. So far I'm not impressed with the MOR stuff his professional songwriters have given him (save Chinatown which is ok). I think he's playing it safe (or, rather, Warner is), which is understandable after the Beady Eye debacle, but perhaps it's a bit rich of him to criticise others for making "beige" or "boring" music after a track like FWIW. Hopefully this album cycle and tour will give him the confidence to continue on the solo path and be more musically ambitious the next time around. Nobody's wishing for him to fail, on the contrary, it would be perfect as Oasis fans to have the two brothers churning out great music every two or three years. It would be the best possible outcome, as the 90s are never going to be back and a reunion would be toxic.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts.
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Post by carlober on Sept 18, 2017 9:25:04 GMT -5
Music. It's about the music. Not image, not charisma, but the pure bare bones songwriting which is the most important element of greatness. If that's not important to you, leave Oasis alone and go ahead and listen to Catpish, Viva Brother The Enemy or Kasabian. I could sing Oasis songs in my diabolical singing voice, and even then, most folk would recognise they are great songs. If the singers performance is the most important element of what makes a band great, and not it's songwriting, then something is amiss and there is a severe lack of substance in the music. But the facts speak for themselves with regards to Oasis. Noel Gallagher wrote Live Forever. Game, set, match. 'nuff said.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Sept 18, 2017 9:37:07 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
I think someone said it above: Liam can turn an average track into something worth listening to, but he can't save a bad song. Same with Elvis or any other great performer. You can't polish up a turd. That's why all the stuff on the charts is so insipid, no real effort is put in the composition.
In the mid-90s, the combination of Noel's songwriting and arrangement abilities with Liam's vocals was just magical, and both started losing their magic around the turn of the century. Noel returned to form with his solo stuff and it looks like Liam's voice has improved a lot and all he is missing is the songs in my opinion. So far I'm not impressed with the MOR stuff his professional songwriters have given him (save Chinatown which is ok). I think he's playing it safe (or, rather, Warner is), which is understandable after the Beady Eye debacle, but perhaps it's a bit rich of him to criticise others for making "beige" or "boring" music after a track like FWIW. Hopefully this album cycle and tour will give him the confidence to continue on the solo path and be more musically ambitious the next time around. Nobody's wishing for him to fail, on the contrary, it would be perfect as Oasis fans to have the two brothers churning out great music every two or three years. It would be the best possible outcome, as the 90s are never going to be back and a reunion would be toxic.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts. There wasn't much of a debate going on. The latest round of responses seemed to be prompted by this from by mancraiderNot only has most of what followed failed utterly to address the key points that mancraider makes (highlighted), its simply been a repetition of what we have seen over the last 7 or 8 years. It really does bore you to tears. People would do well to just accept that some people are Oasis fans because of Liam, went to all those Oasis gigs because of Liam and are looking forward to his new efforts for all those same reasons. Its not a slight on Noel its just the way it is.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Sept 18, 2017 9:40:16 GMT -5
Alright guys. I'm not pretending anything and I'm not keeping my head in the sand. If you think it's my fault that people who bashed Beady Eye and Liam back then, but are happy for Liam as a solo musician now, I'm fine with that. I don't run away and I love Oasis, love and support both Gallaghers. I don't need to add more. Cheers. Bashing is different from trolling. "FWIW is wank" is bashing, and we hear that all day, every day, and it provokes actual discussion. Bashing and banter keep the forums alive. "Why is he playing that location? Much too big for him. Shame, he's going about this all wrong" is concern trolling. "He's walked off the stage, Chicago won't forget that, he's finished now. So sad, he could have made something decent" is concern trolling. "Worried about his voice, Kermit is back in full effect" (this was said about One Love, mind) is concern trolling. I've no problem with bashing. As I said, it keeps things entertaining. But the passive-aggressive trolling is real, and it's more annoying than anything else. A brilliant post, one that directly gets at the heart of previous and continuing problems in this section. Surprised no one has quoted it already. Well done sir.
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Post by andymorris on Sept 18, 2017 9:54:51 GMT -5
Trolling made the internet, though (not trolling you today, TOM, kisses).
It's a big part of the internet history and probably gave a lot of laughs to the older generation of forum people.
I know it's supposed to be a bit sanitized nowadays, but in the end, it is just a forum, just music, and just a band. It would be like going to a pub, play some pool and not tease your friends. What would be the fun of that ? Plus it's an Oasis forum, which is the king of troll bands.
Trolling is love, in a way. I've been to a few forum meetings back in the day and we always ended up in the arms of each other, even people who "hated" each other on a forum.
Peace.
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Sept 18, 2017 9:55:21 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
I think someone said it above: Liam can turn an average track into something worth listening to, but he can't save a bad song. Same with Elvis or any other great performer. You can't polish up a turd. That's why all the stuff on the charts is so insipid, no real effort is put in the composition.
In the mid-90s, the combination of Noel's songwriting and arrangement abilities with Liam's vocals was just magical, and both started losing their magic around the turn of the century. Noel returned to form with his solo stuff and it looks like Liam's voice has improved a lot and all he is missing is the songs in my opinion. So far I'm not impressed with the MOR stuff his professional songwriters have given him (save Chinatown which is ok). I think he's playing it safe (or, rather, Warner is), which is understandable after the Beady Eye debacle, but perhaps it's a bit rich of him to criticise others for making "beige" or "boring" music after a track like FWIW. Hopefully this album cycle and tour will give him the confidence to continue on the solo path and be more musically ambitious the next time around. Nobody's wishing for him to fail, on the contrary, it would be perfect as Oasis fans to have the two brothers churning out great music every two or three years. It would be the best possible outcome, as the 90s are never going to be back and a reunion would be toxic.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts. I agree with basically everything in this post. It's almost exactly the same way I think about it. Except for the Russian aristocrat. Who might that be?
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 9:58:15 GMT -5
There is a very real possibility that without Oasis signing the deal with creation and becoming a professional band, that we would have NEVER heard any of the songs.
The idea that a 27 year old songwriter from Manchester could have just pitched these songs to record labels and then they'd just have eventually found their way to the top isnt realistic at all.
It's a nice theory to have and in an ideal world you;d like to think good music would prevail but we know that isnt the case. How many fucking great songs do you dicover every day that don't have 1% exposure of these Oasis tracks we are talking about?
1994 Oasis burst onto the scene with a very distinctive sound, style and attitude and the platform was Noel's from there.
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 10:01:22 GMT -5
I think FWIW is a good solid song and it's getting better all the time to me.
It's a song that if you are a Liam fan you'll appreciate the message he's wanting to get across with it, and if you aren't, you'll probably find the faults with it you want to.
After all, if you want to like someones music, or dont want to, theres usually a different outcome.
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Post by glider on Sept 18, 2017 10:02:08 GMT -5
This whole idea that if you are an oasis fan you must have been a fan of both Noel and Liam is so simplistic and just a way to shut down someone you disagree with. I became a fan back in 1994 when DM was released. I was much the same age as Liam and loved his image and how cool he seemed. I also loved his voice of course. At the same time I remember noel being in tabloids for abusing people in nightclubs telling them he was the greatest songwriter ever and basically being an obnoxious prick. I never liked his voice either so while I could respect him for writing the songs I was never a fan of noel gallagher. When I saw Oasis live I was fascinated by liam but when noel did his solo spot I found it incredibly dull. I've never bought a Noel Gallagher album or been to a gig and probably never will. So i guess by your standards I must not have been a real oasis fan then. I am on other message boards and they are all exactly like this one, what ever the subject. A large group of people brought together to discuss a single issue but all from very different backgrounds with different views, personalities, senses of humour etc. They all suffer the same problems. Trolls, geeks, arsholes, pedants, the eternally morally outraged, the passive aggressive bores. They're all on every board, and this one's no exception. A lot of people just take this far too seriously. It ain't real life or even important. Music. It's about the music. Not image, not charisma, but the pure bare bones songwriting which is the most important element of greatness. If that's not important to you, leave Oasis alone and go ahead and listen to Catpish, Viva Brother The Enemy or Kasabian. I could sing Oasis songs in my diabolical singing voice, and even then, most folk would recognise they are great songs. If the singers performance is the most important element of what makes a band great, and not it's songwriting, then something is amiss and there is a severe lack of substance in the music. But the facts speak for themselves with regards to Oasis. Noel Gallagher wrote Live Forever. Game, set, match. I'm going to have to disagree with this notion that great songwriting is always the core element of greatness. When it comes to ballad/anthem driven bands that were sprouted up during the 90s Britpop renaissance it absolutely made or broke songs - but the way those songs were sung had a massive impact as well - one that could elevate songs from having lyrical mastery to become pop perfection. The vocalist is so important to a track - when you hear Blur, Damon's vocals have a audible impact immediately that reel you into the song - as does Liam (at least in the 90s for me). Everything after that is for the listener to properly digest - the songwriting can hit you as brilliant, but then again there will be the arrangement of the mix that makes the experience of listening to the song all the more enticing! I know I always bring up Verve as they're arguably my favorite band, but I can tell you after listening to it so many times, as with their earlier EPs and singles, that A Storm In Heaven isn't a masterpiece because of the songwriting - which is hit and miss on it. Leckie's ethereal mix, Nick's guitars, the jazz arrangements and the brillant fusion of multiple genres make those songs classics - not songwriting. It's like when I see Ashcroft saying "See You In The Next One is like my first written song - it showed me the potential I had" ....uh no Richard. See You In The Next One's lyrics are good - melancholic and simple, but the best thing about that song is Leckie's mix with the atomspheric acoustic guitar and reverb space echo piano. The vocals and his lyrics are a great addition, but was not the core element to why that song is great. Basically I'm saying is there is many things that makes a song great, and songwriting is always an important element, but will not always be the make or break one. A song with dull lyrics can get elevated to a good one by masterful musicianship.
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Post by liamgallagher1992 on Sept 18, 2017 10:04:21 GMT -5
Just because you sing your own songs, doesn't mean they come out well. Look at Bob Dylan
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Post by tomlivesforever on Sept 18, 2017 10:06:13 GMT -5
Just because you sing your own songs, doesn't mean they come out well. Look at Bob Dylan While accept Bob's voice won't be to everyones taste I think a lot of his songs came out well ![P-)](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/aISM4jCl_eWjI5L9xvHU.gif)
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Post by mostlyharmless on Sept 18, 2017 10:08:29 GMT -5
I really can't see the controversy in this debate. Nobody is implying that Liam's contribution was negligible or that Oasis without Liam would have been as good, but that the songwriting was the most important ingredient. Liam gave the songs that extra 20% that made them so great, but think of all the classic bands that we worship with singers that couldn't hold a candle to Liam in his prime. I love The Kinks and Ray's voice was a lot more nasal than Liam's in the early years. Still, nobody casts doubt as to where The Kinks stand in rock history. Live Forever would still be a brilliant song with a different singer, but it would have missed the perfect performance and reached fewer people.
As for the personal stuff... who gives a shit, really? My favourite music in the world was created by a petty Russian aristocrat who welcomed fascism with open arms. I'm never going to be Liam's or Noel's mate, and neither are you, so can we just focus on the music a little bit? It certainly would improve the atmosphere around these parts. I think Oasis is a bit different because the character/spirit played a big part in their success. Nobody is saying songwriting isn't important and fundamental. Are there really Oasis fans who don't acknowledge and respect Noel's input? I don't think so. It's just that acknowledgement doesn't always transform into adoration, is it such a big problem? Idolism does exist. Some idolize Liam some idolize Noel and some idolize neither but only care about music, they are ALL FINE. I don't see any position is superior to the other two.
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Post by glider on Sept 18, 2017 10:09:08 GMT -5
I'd even add something that relates to Liam currently - I personally feel Chinatown is his best solo song currently because its production is outstanding and not a cliched John Lennon / Stones mess like FWIW's.
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Post by sgtpeppr on Sept 18, 2017 10:12:43 GMT -5
I think FWIW is a good solid song and it's getting better all the time to me. It's a song that if you are a Liam fan you'll appreciate the message he's wanting to get across with it, and if you aren't, you'll probably find the faults with it you want to.After all, if you want to like someones music, or dont want to, theres usually a different outcome. you can still be a liam fan while not liking everything he makes or does...
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Post by ricardogce on Sept 18, 2017 10:13:43 GMT -5
All this talk about whether either brother would have made it solo got me thinking of an alternate timeline: Noel, reluctant to take the stage solo, becomes a company man and starts churning out megahits for others. The DM songs are wasted on a number of up-and-coming acts that don't quite make it, and are forgotten. Robbie marks his departure from Take That with a Wonderwall/DLBIA double A-side, Christina Aguilera becomes known for her R&B-infused interpretation of Don't Go Away, and Celine Dion smashes records with Stand By Me. Eventually, an unknown, mercurial Liam Gallagher is overheard singing in a pub by a down-and-out Alan McGee, who promptly brings him to Sony's attention, who decide to partner him up with his brother. After all, the chemistry is already there, right? Nothing could go wrong ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 10:13:57 GMT -5
Just because you sing your own songs, doesn't mean they come out well. Look at Bob Dylan While accept Bob's voice won't be to everyones taste I think a lot of his songs came out well ![P-)](//storage.proboards.com/1258801/images/aISM4jCl_eWjI5L9xvHU.gif) Nobody sings Bob Dylan's songs better than Bob Dylan.
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