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Post by dampcottage on Oct 3, 2024 7:35:07 GMT -5
Saying this in response to having just been told that 16 and a half thousand children are dead is insane behaviour You’ll all snap out of the fairytale one day. So how do you see an end to whats happening? |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 3, 2024 9:27:00 GMT -5
Saying this in response to having just been told that 16 and a half thousand children are dead is insane behaviour You’ll all snap out of the fairytale one day.  |
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Post by walterglass on Oct 3, 2024 10:08:01 GMT -5
You’ll all snap out of the fairytale one day. So how do you see an end to whats happening? All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. |
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 10:38:21 GMT -5
So how do you see an end to whats happening? All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. 'If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children' - well that's exactly what they've done. This isn't an opinion either, it's an incontrovertible fact |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 3, 2024 11:21:43 GMT -5
So how do you see an end to whats happening? All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. The Hamas numbers have been investigated following past conflicts and found to be accurate, if not under represented. Why would that change now? Where is your evidence that their numbers are currently inaccurate. Your claim requires a burden of proof.
Additionally, the ICJ has ordered Israel to cease and desist and have stated that genocide in Gaza is plausible.
Israel needs to follow international law. Period. No excuses. No special pleading. Israel is NOT following international law. And the United States is in violation of its own domestic Leahy law.
As an atheist and anti-theist, I detest all religion, especially Islam since it tends to be the most violent, yet I do not allow my dislike for Islam to cloud my moral judgement. Israel is committing criminal acts against the occupied Palestinian territory, as well as engaging in an illegal escalation in a war of aggression against Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Iran. This behavior is not unprecedented. Hezbollah for example arose from Israel's earlier invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Naturally, people will fight for their homes and livelihood. Any person is justified to fight against occupiers.
Israel's behavior is unacceptable. Just because there are extremist religious factions rooted within the governments of the nations Israel attacks, doesn't justify Israeli aggression. The Israeli government itself is dominated by right wing, authoritarian religious extremists. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Take for instance Iran's recent response to Israel's attacks, they attacked military targets in Israel. Operating well within international law. This includes an attack on Mossad HQ, which as an Israeli spokesman pointed out, is surrounded by civilian infrastructure (human shields). Yet, Iran did not cause civilian casualties in this strike, despite launching 180 ballistic missiles.
Clearly, war can be conducted civilly. But Israel is not doing so. Even Hamas has a lower civilian casualty rate in their attacks than Israel.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 3, 2024 11:30:06 GMT -5
It astounds me that people think a 90% civilian casualty rate happens by accident.
It's either gross negligence (complete failure to follow international law), or civilians are specifically the target. My estimation is it's the latter considering Israel's vocal plans to expand its borders. Even if it's the former, there is no excuse! No honest defense, not if you value human life equally.
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 13:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 13:39:04 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 3, 2024 15:16:56 GMT -5
Why?
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 16:04:43 GMT -5
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 16:26:37 GMT -5
Vital viewing. The bit at 18:36 made me want to puke
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Post by Sadie on Oct 3, 2024 16:27:42 GMT -5
Look at the disparity in these figures
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 3, 2024 19:26:35 GMT -5
Look at the disparity in these figures Wow.  |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 4, 2024 0:01:02 GMT -5
Vital viewing. The bit at 18:36 made me want to puke Yep, a must see. |
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Post by walterglass on Oct 4, 2024 6:10:50 GMT -5
All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. 'If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children' - well that's exactly what they've done. This isn't an opinion either, it's an incontrovertible fact Fateh Al Sharif. A leader of Hamas in Lebanon and - wait for it - a UN employee. It sounds like a conspiracy theory - and I wish it was. But alas it’s an “incontrovertible fact”. |
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Post by dampcottage on Oct 6, 2024 3:02:42 GMT -5
So how do you see an end to whats happening? All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. So where do you get your news/information from? |
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Post by AllOrNothing on Oct 6, 2024 11:45:03 GMT -5
As an atheist and anti-theist, I detest all religion, especially Islam since it tends to be the most violent, yet I do not allow my dislike for Islam to cloud my moral judgement. Israel is committing criminal acts against the occupied Palestinian territory, as well as engaging in an illegal escalation in a war of aggression against Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Iran. This behavior is not unprecedented. Hezbollah for example arose from Israel's earlier invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Naturally, people will fight for their homes and livelihood. Any person is justified to fight against occupiers.
I, too, would like to live in a world where Abrahamic religions don't exist (I can't really speak for other religions as I don't know shit about them, even though in my book all organised religions are in themselves reactionnary forces), but saying that Islam is the most violent of them is a bit too dissmissive of the inherent violence of the Torah and thus the Christian Bible (which includes the Jewish Book).
The sole existence of the utter litterary atrocity called Deuteronomy is enough to prove that Christian and Jewish faiths carry their own genocidal seeds, see chapter 2 verse 34: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"
One only has to look at the catholic versus protestant massacres of the past centuries to see clerical violence in full display. I think the only reason why we don't see quite as much violence today among Christian is because the influence of the clergy has been blown away by the French Revolution. This is also why I oppose any kind of religious involvement with states.
Even though I wrote a lot here, please note that I agree with your point of view.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 6, 2024 11:53:38 GMT -5
As an atheist and anti-theist, I detest all religion, especially Islam since it tends to be the most violent, yet I do not allow my dislike for Islam to cloud my moral judgement. Israel is committing criminal acts against the occupied Palestinian territory, as well as engaging in an illegal escalation in a war of aggression against Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Iran. This behavior is not unprecedented. Hezbollah for example arose from Israel's earlier invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Naturally, people will fight for their homes and livelihood. Any person is justified to fight against occupiers.
I, too, would like to live in a world where Abrahamic religions don't exist (I can't really speak for other religions as I don't know shit about them, even though in my book all organised religions are in themselves reactionnary forces), but saying that Islam is the most violent of them is a bit too dissmissive of the inherent violence of the Torah and thus the Christian Bible (which includes the Jewish Book).
The sole existence of the utter litterary atrocity called Deuteronomy is enough to prove that Christian and Jewish faiths carry their own genocidal seeds, see chapter 2 verse 34: "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"
One only has to look at the catholic versus protestant massacres of the past centuries to see clerical violence in full display. I think the only reason why we don't see quite as much violence today among Christian is because the influence of the clergy has been blown away by the French Revolution. This is also why I oppose any kind of religious involvement with states.
Even though I wrote a lot here, please note that I agree with your point of view.
I don't disagree. Christian violence is just more subversive, masquerading as imperialism (or for example, funding the destruction of Arab nations). Christian extremism is less so about beheadings and more so about oppression of entire ethnic groups. It's probably the greater evil overall. But less shocking on the surface. |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 6, 2024 15:38:14 GMT -5
Super nervous about what Israel may be planning tomorrow against the Palestinians. The bulk of Jewish deaths during the Holocaust took place over several months in 1942. I fear the Israeli government may escalate the extermination of Palestinians starting on the anniversary of Oct 7th. Hope I am wrong.
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Post by walterglass on Oct 7, 2024 11:04:30 GMT -5
All out war. A peace process, diplomatic negotiations…although well-intended ultimately return us to square one (again and again). I understand that’s a painful point for people to digest but it’s the awful reality of where we find ourselves. Conflict - in this case - is the quickest route to a lasting peace. Now that Iran have been forced to show their hand (they are the sponsors of Hamas, Hezbollah & the Houthi movement) by openly raining missiles down on Israel - the rat has been smoked out of its nest. This is a big moment. The problem with Iran - and plenty of other countries - is that religious extremism occupies the same space that politics does. This needs to be changed and unfortunately it will only change by force. Israel needs to be allowed to finished the job and do to Iran what it has successfully done to Hezbollah. There are lovely people in this thread, reacting perfectly naturally to what the BBC etc report to them. There are people repeating verbatim statistics that Hamas and the UNRWA are releasing. The age we live in, though, is an age where the war in the media - and the forum of public opinion - can be pivotal. If we believe the information we receive we’d be very convinced that Israel have done little but drop bombs on to the heads of women and children. Quite how Hezbollah has been taken out man by man - well it must simply be a happy accident that happened whilst Israel were aiming for anybody BUT the terrorists. As ugly as it is - and however unpalatable it may be - an unchecked Iran and its proxies would become a beast. A beast that would become a threat to the security of every Western democracy. A new Cold War would emerge where the sabre rattling of nuclear warheads would be a constant worry for generations of people across Europe and North America. The war is tragic but the alternative to this is a lot worse. So where do you get your news/information from? It isn’t the answer you’re looking for but mainly The Guardian and The Wall Street Journal. I don’t blindly agree with everything they publish but I find the writing is of a higher standard than most rags. |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 7, 2024 15:24:48 GMT -5
Thankfully, no big escalation today. (Correct me if I'm wrong please, maybe I missed it. I've been distracted by the approaching Hurricane Milton)
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Post by walterglass on Oct 7, 2024 16:24:20 GMT -5
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 7, 2024 16:42:54 GMT -5
 Incredible to see this imagine being the most viral one across the internet today. Israel has become a rogue entity in the same league as apartheid South Africa in modern consciousness; one can only hope that the end result will be the same. All progress is unrealistic thinking, until it isn't. |
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 476
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Post by Lundblad on Oct 7, 2024 17:54:41 GMT -5
I couldn't believe my ears hearing Starmer saying "We stand with Israel". With that word, he officially announced that he supports this genocide. Israel and Hamas, no better than one another. This killing must stop! There are a lot of absurdities and Iranian/Russian/Chinese propaganda in this thread, that are not really worth the energy to discuss, but I must ask you about this statement which I think is especially weird since we are in the context of a rock n roll music forum. Do you really believe that Israel and Hamas are "no better than one another"? One of them is a pluralistic liberal democratic state, albeit with flaws – the only country in the Middle east where arab citizens enjoy democratic rights. The other is an islamist racist terror group with an ideology and practice that detest the essence of Western civilization, including of course, western rock n roll music. Its most important pillar is the hatred of the Jewish people. It started a war against Israel exactly one year ago. This happened with a terrorist attack that was spearheaded by, among other things, a coordinated attack against young people at a music festival. They were systematically raping and then killing female festival visitors in the most gruesome manner. They filmed it all in order to provoke a violent response from the country it attacked and to create a big war in the Middle East. Civilian casualties among Palestinians is, for ideological and practical reasons, not anything that bothers Hamas. The said terror group is financed and allied with Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the region. A country that is not only systematically oppressing its own people, but also others in the region through proxies such as Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthu movement. Iran is also conducting attacks of various kinds on European countries and it is an important ally of Russia and China, the west's major geopolitical enemies and two countries who is working with all their might to undermine the current world order. Against the background of watching the incredible suffering of the Palestinian people on TV, it is understandable that people feel strongly for their cause. But with some basic knowledge of the larger conflict, and some basic understanding of how precious our civilization and our liberal values are – I find it alarming that so many people take this strong stance against Israel, in favor of Iran and Hamas. |
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Post by walterglass on Oct 7, 2024 18:09:12 GMT -5
Essential viewing IMO.
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5