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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 24, 2024 14:29:48 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 24, 2024 14:44:17 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 25, 2024 12:00:18 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 27, 2024 14:59:55 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 27, 2024 15:01:00 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 27, 2024 15:02:21 GMT -5
WARNING GRAPHIC x.com/tparsi/status/1794842576106684695Till this day, there is no evidence of the beheaded Israeli babies Biden spoke of. But there are plenty of Palestinian babies with no heads and limbs, ripped apart by Israel's American bombs. Biden never speaks of these babies. To him, they don't matter. This was today in Rafah
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 469
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Post by Lundblad on May 27, 2024 20:13:42 GMT -5
What is the point of just posting an endless wall of links to extreme Twitter content, without comment? This is a discussion forum, right? I opened this link. It contains bargage content of an American extremist politician hugging members of an extremist organisation. "Code Pink" is Pro-Russia, Pro-Iran (the IR), Pro-Hamas and Pro-Chinese (The CCP). It is even financed by the Chinese Communist Party (and given what we know from experience most likely by Russia and Iran as well, directly or indirectly).
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 27, 2024 20:41:40 GMT -5
What is the point of just posting an endless wall of links to extreme Twitter content, without comment? This is a discussion forum, right? I opened this link. It contains bargage content of an American extremist politician hugging members of an extremist organisation. "Code Pink" is Pro-Russia, Pro-Iran (the IR), Pro-Hamas and Pro-Chinese (The CCP). It is even financed by the Chinese Communist Party (and given what we know from experience most likely by Russia and Iran as well, directly or indirectly). To raise awareness on what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank during the genocide afflicting them. It's one of the things I can do with just a little bit of my time to help the cause. What are you doing to help Palestinians?
Regarding those you have casually dismissed, do you have actual critiques of the positions these people express and not just ad hominem attacks directed at them? Are you really telling me that you don't see the value of an organization like Code Pink?
Dismissing their positions by labeling them as pro-(some country you don't like), is lazy. At the very least, substantiate that claim and explain why it's relevant to their position on what is happening in Gaza and why therefore they should be dismissed.
Also, the notion that Ilhan Omar is an extremist gave me a tickle. She is not an extremist by any stretch of the imagination. If you disagree, feel free to lay out the argument demonstrating her extreme positions.
Also, you're not obligated to click any link. And unfortunately, it seems they stopped embedding. Which is why I started pasting the text of the tweets down.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 27, 2024 20:49:25 GMT -5
It boggles my fucking mind that people can look at an organization that is anti-war, pro-peace, pro human rights and then label them extremists. Absolute nonsense. It is not an extreme position to be pro-humanity. That SHOULD be the standard by which everyone starts from.
It's the people who don't agree with anti-war, pro-peace, and pro-human rights, that are the extremists. Humanitarianism is not an extreme position.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 28, 2024 14:15:52 GMT -5
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 469
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Post by Lundblad on May 28, 2024 16:36:57 GMT -5
What is the point of just posting an endless wall of links to extreme Twitter content, without comment? This is a discussion forum, right? I opened this link. It contains bargage content of an American extremist politician hugging members of an extremist organisation. "Code Pink" is Pro-Russia, Pro-Iran (the IR), Pro-Hamas and Pro-Chinese (The CCP). It is even financed by the Chinese Communist Party (and given what we know from experience most likely by Russia and Iran as well, directly or indirectly). To raise awareness on what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank during the genocide afflicting them. It's one of the things I can do with just a little bit of my time to help the cause. What are you doing to help Palestinians? Regarding those you have casually dismissed, do you have actual critiques of the positions these people express and not just ad hominem attacks directed at them? Are you really telling me that you don't see the value of an organization like Code Pink? Dismissing their positions by labeling them as pro-(some country you don't like), is lazy. At the very least, substantiate that claim and explain why it's relevant to their position on what is happening in Gaza and why therefore they should be dismissed. Also, the notion that Ilhan Omar is an extremist gave me a tickle. She is not an extremist by any stretch of the imagination. If you disagree, feel free to lay out the argument demonstrating her extreme positions. Also, you're not obligated to click any link. And unfortunately, it seems they stopped embedding. Which is why I started pasting the text of the tweets down.
Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes: "October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine." This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel. On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war." This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. I found some really crazy pro-CCP propaganda on the web site. This is actually insane and sounds like something directly coming from state-run Chinese media ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because the United States government is the main provocateur of war and destruction in the world today. China is clearly the current target. This provocation threatens all of humanity with a nuclear war. It must be stopped." ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because I want to end U.S. imperialism and the only way to do that is by challenging stereotypes and propaganda through a feminist lens that advances solidarity, unity, and cooperation (some very key principles of China's culture)." Apparently the NY Times have reported about the connections between this organisation and one of main enemies of human rights in the world – the Chinese state. Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs. At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 28, 2024 17:33:43 GMT -5
To raise awareness on what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank during the genocide afflicting them. It's one of the things I can do with just a little bit of my time to help the cause. What are you doing to help Palestinians? Regarding those you have casually dismissed, do you have actual critiques of the positions these people express and not just ad hominem attacks directed at them? Are you really telling me that you don't see the value of an organization like Code Pink? Dismissing their positions by labeling them as pro-(some country you don't like), is lazy. At the very least, substantiate that claim and explain why it's relevant to their position on what is happening in Gaza and why therefore they should be dismissed. Also, the notion that Ilhan Omar is an extremist gave me a tickle. She is not an extremist by any stretch of the imagination. If you disagree, feel free to lay out the argument demonstrating her extreme positions. Also, you're not obligated to click any link. And unfortunately, it seems they stopped embedding. Which is why I started pasting the text of the tweets down.
Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes: "October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine." This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel. On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war." This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. I found some really crazy pro-CCP propaganda on the web site. This is actually insane and sounds like something directly coming from state-run Chinese media ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because the United States government is the main provocateur of war and destruction in the world today. China is clearly the current target. This provocation threatens all of humanity with a nuclear war. It must be stopped." ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because I want to end U.S. imperialism and the only way to do that is by challenging stereotypes and propaganda through a feminist lens that advances solidarity, unity, and cooperation (some very key principles of China's culture)." Apparently the NY Times have reported about the connections between this organisation and one of main enemies of human rights in the world – the Chinese state. Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs. At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism. On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war." This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west.
"Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes:"
Here is the full quote:
Occupation, Colonization, and Apartheid are all violence against a people; the world knows and agrees with this but the U.S. continues to support it, while touting itself as the world leader of democracy. October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine. Sending troops and munitions to the defence of Israel will not engender peace but rather perpetuate the oppression that fuels the need for resistance. It is so important to use this moment to propel us towards peace. We must act now. Palestinians are confronting the world with their truth, which should be supported and respected. Protests are happening across the U.S., find a protest near you, and use your voice for peace.
"This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel."
The full quote in context, which you conveniently ignored, puts reality into perspective. Oct 7th is the consequence of decades of apartheid and occupation. You cannot brutalize a people, restrict their freedoms and separate them from one another and expect those people afflicted to be okay with that. That will radicalize some percentage of that population.
Codepink is not claiming the violence against civilians was justified. They are saying that the sort of resistance that is created as a consequence of enduring decades of humanitarian crimes, is warranted and justified. No slave owner has a right to defend themselves from their enslaved. No occupier has the right to defend themselves from their occupied. Palestine has every right to revolt against their abusers (Israel). This is true for every people systemically brutalized and oppressed. It does not excuse violence directed at civilians. But resistance in a general sense, is warranted.
"On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war."
This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. "
This is just your opinion. Following the end of WW2, we had a semi-peaceful relationship with the Soviets. We should have respected the existing borders. That didn't happen. We expanded east into Soviet territory, infringing upon their borders. That was aggression. That was a violation. And it led to a series of conflicts and proxy wars that ultimately destabilized the Soviet Union. That happened. And it was wrong. That was U.S imperialism at work. It was not peaceful. It did not make the world more safe. We should have respected the borders. And yet, we are STILL expanding. In that sense, we caused the problems now happening in Ukraine. Which is why we should be giving humanitarian aid, but no weapons to Ukraine.
"Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. "
Again, this is an opinion.
"You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. "
No. It's about ending the meddling in the affairs of other nations. I want the U.S. to STOP its imperialism. Stop being the world police. Russia wants Ukraine because it wants to rebuild the Union that we destroyed. Or at least take back the land that they believe is rightfully theirs. Ukraine obviously feels differently. I believe in the right for Ukraine to demand independence. But that does not necessarily mean they should get to do that with our weapons. Humanitarian aid? Absolutely. No weapons.
And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs.
In almost every discussion I've had with you, you always bring up China and Russia. I do not share your obsession with these nations. Nor do I accept your belief that peace strengthens their country anymore than it would strengthen ours. I believe in a mutually beneficial relationship.
"At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism."
Prove it. You have expressed a lot of opinions. I have yet to see the cold hard facts.
Also worth pointing out that in all that you wrote here, you utterly failed to do the single thing that I asked you to do, which was to connect it to their opinions on the genocide happening in Gaza, which is what this thread is about. Your statement on Oct 7th is a brief, passing mention and you quickly move on from there.
It is clear to me that you are generalizing what they are saying. You're not willing to analyze and critique their individual positions. Every argument must be addressed based on its own merits and not inferred based on some other opinion they have on some other topic that isn't even related. You dismiss them entirely based on what you perceive are affiliations with these other nations that you don't like.
Not a single example that you provided supports any notion of extremism, which was your choice of words in your original comment.
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 469
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Post by Lundblad on May 29, 2024 8:27:34 GMT -5
Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes: "October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine." This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel. On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war." This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. I found some really crazy pro-CCP propaganda on the web site. This is actually insane and sounds like something directly coming from state-run Chinese media ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because the United States government is the main provocateur of war and destruction in the world today. China is clearly the current target. This provocation threatens all of humanity with a nuclear war. It must be stopped." ""I joined the China Is Not Our Enemy campaign because I want to end U.S. imperialism and the only way to do that is by challenging stereotypes and propaganda through a feminist lens that advances solidarity, unity, and cooperation (some very key principles of China's culture)." Apparently the NY Times have reported about the connections between this organisation and one of main enemies of human rights in the world – the Chinese state. Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs. At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism. On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war." This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west.
"Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes:" Here is the full quote:
Occupation, Colonization, and Apartheid are all violence against a people; the world knows and agrees with this but the U.S. continues to support it, while touting itself as the world leader of democracy. October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine. Sending troops and munitions to the defence of Israel will not engender peace but rather perpetuate the oppression that fuels the need for resistance. It is so important to use this moment to propel us towards peace. We must act now. Palestinians are confronting the world with their truth, which should be supported and respected. Protests are happening across the U.S., find a protest near you, and use your voice for peace. "This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel."
The full quote in context, which you conveniently ignored, puts reality into perspective. Oct 7th is the consequence of decades of apartheid and occupation. You cannot brutalize a people, restrict their freedoms and separate them from one another and expect those people afflicted to be okay with that. That will radicalize some percentage of that population.
Codepink is not claiming the violence against civilians was justified. They are saying that the sort of resistance that is created as a consequence of enduring decades of humanitarian crimes, is warranted and justified. No slave owner has a right to defend themselves from their enslaved. No occupier has the right to defend themselves from their occupied. Palestine has every right to revolt against their abusers (Israel). This is true for every people systemically brutalized and oppressed. It does not excuse violence directed at civilians. But resistance in a general sense, is warranted.
"On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war."
This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. "
This is just your opinion. Following the end of WW2, we had a semi-peaceful relationship with the Soviets. We should have respected the existing borders. That didn't happen. We expanded east into Soviet territory, infringing upon their borders. That was aggression. That was a violation. And it led to a series of conflicts and proxy wars that ultimately destabilized the Soviet Union. That happened. And it was wrong. That was U.S imperialism at work. It was not peaceful. It did not make the world more safe. We should have respected the borders. And yet, we are STILL expanding. In that sense, we caused the problems now happening in Ukraine. Which is why we should be giving humanitarian aid, but no weapons to Ukraine.
"Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. "
Again, this is an opinion.
"You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. "
No. It's about ending the meddling in the affairs of other nations. I want the U.S. to STOP its imperialism. Stop being the world police. Russia wants Ukraine because it wants to rebuild the Union that we destroyed. Or at least take back the land that they believe is rightfully theirs. Ukraine obviously feels differently. I believe in the right for Ukraine to demand independence. But that does not necessarily mean they should get to do that with our weapons. Humanitarian aid? Absolutely. No weapons.
And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs.
In almost every discussion I've had with you, you always bring up China and Russia. I do not share your obsession with these nations. Nor do I accept your belief that peace strengthens their country anymore than it would strengthen ours. I believe in a mutually beneficial relationship.
"At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism."
Prove it. You have expressed a lot of opinions. I have yet to see the cold hard facts. Also worth pointing out that in all that you wrote here, you utterly failed to do the single thing that I asked you to do, which was to connect it to their opinions on the genocide happening in Gaza, which is what this thread is about. Your statement on Oct 7th is a brief, passing mention and you quickly move on from there.
It is clear to me that you are generalizing what they are saying. You're not willing to analyze and critique their individual positions. Every argument must be addressed based on its own merits and not inferred based on some other opinion they have on some other topic that isn't even related. You dismiss them entirely based on what you perceive are affiliations with these other nations that you don't like. Not a single example that you provided supports any notion of extremism, which was your choice of words in your original comment.
The thing is that those issues are connected to each other. The October 7 attacks were a gift to despots around the world, including Russia and China. I am very invested in protecting rule of law, human rights and democracy, our western values, and China and Russia are the largest forces threatening such values globally. The basis of those regimes is that might is right. The Iranian regime is their regional ally and in the larger perspective, Hamas is just a tool of Iran. I do not "dislike" the nations of Russia and China – fantastic people, fantastic countries – I hate their regimes and the dreadful consequences they have for the people inside them and outside them. Hamas' aim with the terror attack was to create the most violent response possible from Israel, in order to create a large-scale conflict in the region. They might have failed in some respects, but they have succeeded in weakening the support for Israel in the region as well as in the west. It has also served to weaken the support for Ukraine among citizens of the west, and their government (The US is an example). In that sense, the October 7 attack was a gift to Russia. I am not here to defend every action by the Israeli government or their response to October 7. I think the Israeli government is disgraceful in the way it has propped up Hamas, and in the extremist elements that are inside it. I dislike their settlement policies on the West Bank. But the reality is that if Israel do not control its border this sort of thing would happen all the time. Hamas is not interested in peace until they wiped out the country of Israel. Israel is a tiny island in a region were antisemitism is the norm. Palestinians are indoctrinated in hatred against jews and martyrdom culture from a very young age. There can be no peace as long as Hamas rules the Gaza strip. It is all a great tragedy – I see no end to this after October 7. The Palestinian people will continue to suffer, and the Israeli people will continue to suffer as well. I agree that the Palestinian people are oppressed and that their freedoms are restricted – first and foremost by its leaders and Hamas. Now you are sounding like Vladimir Putin Do you really think that it was wrong that the Soviet Union, the largest prison in world history, ceased to exist? I think the people of Eastern Europe disagree. What expansions into Soviet territory do you mean? You know that when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in 1994, the Russians pledged to honour Ukraine's borders? You did not cause the "problems" (massacres, systematised abductions, bombings of civilians) happening in Ukraine. Russia causes them. Every day. And it irritates me a lot that the upper middle-class do-gooders occupying university campuses (lol) in the West never did anything to protest Russian aggression against democratic states, never did anything to question the persecution of Uighurs in China, etc. Instead, they are excusing and rationalising it. I respect your opinion that the US should not act as world police. The US government of course has its obligations towards its own tax payers and citizens – not to Europeans or anyone else. However, I am very thankful that you have done just that, because without US "world policing", Europe would have been taken over by Nazi Germany in the first place, and then by the Soviets – two of the most brutal and destructive regimes in world history. Europe's freedom, wealth and prosperity is built upon the foundations of US security. For very long, until 2022, Western European leaders behaved in the way that you and Codepink propose – with an appeasement idea that "if we just treat the Russians nicely, they will act nicely back". The result is the death and destruction in Ukraine. Now, Western Europeans are (to a certain extent) starting to take care of their own security, but it will take a long while until we are able to defend ourselves without US help. And by the laws of gravity, any larger conflict would have the US sucked in, so it is more rational from a US perspective to send huge amounts of weapons to Ukraine now (or two years ago), in order to prevent further Russian agression.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on May 31, 2024 18:29:07 GMT -5
"Here are some actual quotes from the the Code Pink web site that I found in googling for 15 minutes:" Here is the full quote:
Occupation, Colonization, and Apartheid are all violence against a people; the world knows and agrees with this but the U.S. continues to support it, while touting itself as the world leader of democracy. October 7 was an act of resistance because the world has not responded to peaceful calls for justice in Palestine. Sending troops and munitions to the defence of Israel will not engender peace but rather perpetuate the oppression that fuels the need for resistance. It is so important to use this moment to propel us towards peace. We must act now. Palestinians are confronting the world with their truth, which should be supported and respected. Protests are happening across the U.S., find a protest near you, and use your voice for peace. "This is how a "pro-human rights" organisation describes a brutal terror attack involving the murder, rape and kidnapping of thousands of innocent people, carefully filmed and broadcasted to invoke maximum terror, shock and a violent response from Israel."
The full quote in context, which you conveniently ignored, puts reality into perspective. Oct 7th is the consequence of decades of apartheid and occupation. You cannot brutalize a people, restrict their freedoms and separate them from one another and expect those people afflicted to be okay with that. That will radicalize some percentage of that population.
Codepink is not claiming the violence against civilians was justified. They are saying that the sort of resistance that is created as a consequence of enduring decades of humanitarian crimes, is warranted and justified. No slave owner has a right to defend themselves from their enslaved. No occupier has the right to defend themselves from their occupied. Palestine has every right to revolt against their abusers (Israel). This is true for every people systemically brutalized and oppressed. It does not excuse violence directed at civilians. But resistance in a general sense, is warranted.
"On the war in Ukraine, they write: "The war in Ukraine is a disaster for the people of Ukraine and a terrible threat to us all, including increasing the danger of nuclear war. We oppose the Russian invasion while recognizing that the expansion of NATO and the aggressive approach of Western nations have helped cause the crisis, and we demand an end to NATO expansion. We also oppose sanctions that will harm ordinary Russians and call on all countries to welcome refugees fleeing the war."
This is more or less directly copied from pro-Kremlin propaganda, the same talking points that floods alt-right web sites in the west. "
This is just your opinion. Following the end of WW2, we had a semi-peaceful relationship with the Soviets. We should have respected the existing borders. That didn't happen. We expanded east into Soviet territory, infringing upon their borders. That was aggression. That was a violation. And it led to a series of conflicts and proxy wars that ultimately destabilized the Soviet Union. That happened. And it was wrong. That was U.S imperialism at work. It was not peaceful. It did not make the world more safe. We should have respected the borders. And yet, we are STILL expanding. In that sense, we caused the problems now happening in Ukraine. Which is why we should be giving humanitarian aid, but no weapons to Ukraine.
"Humanitarianism is not an extreme position, but the problem with the "peace movement"/"anti-war movement" is that it the actual effect of its activism is working against their cause and supports exactly the opposite. That is why the pro-peace movement in Western Europe have been used as a tool for the Russian government. "
Again, this is an opinion.
"You see, to advocate for a "peaceful solution" to Russia's war om Ukraine means giving Russia whatever the hell they want. The actual effect of these beautiful words is the exact opposite – it rewards wars of aggression. And it is so far away from the reality that the people of Ukraine, Georgia, the Baltic states and Poland live under. And it means further oppression of the Russian people. "
No. It's about ending the meddling in the affairs of other nations. I want the U.S. to STOP its imperialism. Stop being the world police. Russia wants Ukraine because it wants to rebuild the Union that we destroyed. Or at least take back the land that they believe is rightfully theirs. Ukraine obviously feels differently. I believe in the right for Ukraine to demand independence. But that does not necessarily mean they should get to do that with our weapons. Humanitarian aid? Absolutely. No weapons.
And it is the same way with this "peace with China" nonsense. The only thing it achieves is strengthening the Chinese Communist Party, at the cost of the people of Taiwan and Tibet and minorities such as the Uighurs.
In almost every discussion I've had with you, you always bring up China and Russia. I do not share your obsession with these nations. Nor do I accept your belief that peace strengthens their country anymore than it would strengthen ours. I believe in a mutually beneficial relationship.
"At best, the western "activists" who support those causes are too politically naive to understand what the end result of their policies would be. At worst, they are just virtue signaling without caring about the actual consequences of their activism."
Prove it. You have expressed a lot of opinions. I have yet to see the cold hard facts. Also worth pointing out that in all that you wrote here, you utterly failed to do the single thing that I asked you to do, which was to connect it to their opinions on the genocide happening in Gaza, which is what this thread is about. Your statement on Oct 7th is a brief, passing mention and you quickly move on from there.
It is clear to me that you are generalizing what they are saying. You're not willing to analyze and critique their individual positions. Every argument must be addressed based on its own merits and not inferred based on some other opinion they have on some other topic that isn't even related. You dismiss them entirely based on what you perceive are affiliations with these other nations that you don't like. Not a single example that you provided supports any notion of extremism, which was your choice of words in your original comment.
The thing is that those issues are connected to each other. The October 7 attacks were a gift to despots around the world, including Russia and China. I am very invested in protecting rule of law, human rights and democracy, our western values, and China and Russia are the largest forces threatening such values globally. The basis of those regimes is that might is right. The Iranian regime is their regional ally and in the larger perspective, Hamas is just a tool of Iran. I do not "dislike" the nations of Russia and China – fantastic people, fantastic countries – I hate their regimes and the dreadful consequences they have for the people inside them and outside them. Hamas' aim with the terror attack was to create the most violent response possible from Israel, in order to create a large-scale conflict in the region. They might have failed in some respects, but they have succeeded in weakening the support for Israel in the region as well as in the west. It has also served to weaken the support for Ukraine among citizens of the west, and their government (The US is an example). In that sense, the October 7 attack was a gift to Russia. I am not here to defend every action by the Israeli government or their response to October 7. I think the Israeli government is disgraceful in the way it has propped up Hamas, and in the extremist elements that are inside it. I dislike their settlement policies on the West Bank. But the reality is that if Israel do not control its border this sort of thing would happen all the time. Hamas is not interested in peace until they wiped out the country of Israel. Israel is a tiny island in a region were antisemitism is the norm. Palestinians are indoctrinated in hatred against jews and martyrdom culture from a very young age. There can be no peace as long as Hamas rules the Gaza strip. It is all a great tragedy – I see no end to this after October 7. The Palestinian people will continue to suffer, and the Israeli people will continue to suffer as well. I agree that the Palestinian people are oppressed and that their freedoms are restricted – first and foremost by its leaders and Hamas. Now you are sounding like Vladimir Putin Do you really think that it was wrong that the Soviet Union, the largest prison in world history, ceased to exist? I think the people of Eastern Europe disagree. What expansions into Soviet territory do you mean? You know that when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in 1994, the Russians pledged to honour Ukraine's borders? You did not cause the "problems" (massacres, systematised abductions, bombings of civilians) happening in Ukraine. Russia causes them. Every day. And it irritates me a lot that the upper middle-class do-gooders occupying university campuses (lol) in the West never did anything to protest Russian aggression against democratic states, never did anything to question the persecution of Uighurs in China, etc. Instead, they are excusing and rationalising it. I respect your opinion that the US should not act as world police. The US government of course has its obligations towards its own tax payers and citizens – not to Europeans or anyone else. However, I am very thankful that you have done just that, because without US "world policing", Europe would have been taken over by Nazi Germany in the first place, and then by the Soviets – two of the most brutal and destructive regimes in world history. Europe's freedom, wealth and prosperity is built upon the foundations of US security. For very long, until 2022, Western European leaders behaved in the way that you and Codepink propose – with an appeasement idea that "if we just treat the Russians nicely, they will act nicely back". The result is the death and destruction in Ukraine. Now, Western Europeans are (to a certain extent) starting to take care of their own security, but it will take a long while until we are able to defend ourselves without US help. And by the laws of gravity, any larger conflict would have the US sucked in, so it is more rational from a US perspective to send huge amounts of weapons to Ukraine now (or two years ago), in order to prevent further Russian agression. NATO expanded east against the wishes of the Soviet Union and now Russia. This is an act of aggression. This sort of behavior threw out peace, which culminated in a series of proxy wars that destabilized the SU and brought it to its knees. That expansion continues, borders of NATO are now encroaching on Russian territory. I'm certain how you recall the U.S. responded to Russia placing missiles so near its borders (Cuban Missile Crisis). If you can appreciate why we responded the way we did, then you can appreciate why Russia would respond to a similar scale threat right on its own borders.
This system of expansion directly led to the conflict Ukraine is now facing. U.S culpability in all the chaos that followed after the end of WW2, must be acknowledged. And unfortunately, we just don't do it. We won't do it. U.S supremacy at work. This doesn't mean Russia is free from culpability. They are the other side of that coin. They are responsible for their own actions, but they have maintained that they do not want NATO to expand eastward. They have always wanted satellite states around their motherland. And that has become more clear following the breakup of the SU. They feel like they are being cornered ... because they are. That has been U.S policy towards Russia since the start of the Cold War. And it has something that has cost literally millions of lives since. There was a better path forward, proposed by Roosevelt and Wallace... but that path died with Roosevelt. It has been war, greed and the perspective of U.S supremacy over Europe ever since.
The allies defeated the Nazis. That's not the policing I am talking about. I am talking about after WW2. The role of the United States fundamentally changed from something more concerned with its local ambitions to a nation with global ambitions. We solidified that with the atom bomb, striking Japan twice to scare the Soviets who did not yet have nuclear weapons. We essentially used the aftermath of WW2 to put military footholds into various parts of the world, especially around what was Soviet or Soviet influenced territory and we've not left since.
The U.S is not a force for peace. If you disagree, just look at the genocide in Gaza we've been funding now for 8 months. Or worse, the system of occupation and apartheid that we have allowed to go on for decades in a territory that we have great influence over (and could have put an end to at any time). Remember, we helped create the state of Israel. We have funded Israel for decades. Joe Biden himself is quoted saying Israel is an important ally to maintain in the Middle East to protect our interests (resources+control) over the region.
This thread is about the genocide in Gaza, let's keep it on track. Your initial comment complained about there being no discussion on Gaza, despite many posts with links to the subject. And yet, the bulk of your responses have had nothing to do with Gaza.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jun 3, 2024 16:00:01 GMT -5
While Israel demands the return of 124 Israeli hostages from Hamas, Israel currently holds THOUSANDS of Palestinians without charge (hostages). These are the sorts of conditions subjected onto these detainees documented by Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor. Do you stand by this? Much talk about the return of Israeli hostages, not so much talk about the return of the thousands of Palestinian hostages. Media bias is real.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jun 10, 2024 15:14:37 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jun 10, 2024 15:15:17 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jun 12, 2024 15:18:33 GMT -5
The definition of genocide revolves around intent. Does this video not demonstrate intent?
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jun 19, 2024 18:42:04 GMT -5
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Post by Day Tripper on Jun 20, 2024 4:53:38 GMT -5
What is the point of just posting an endless wall of links to extreme Twitter content, without comment? This is a discussion forum, right? I opened this link. It contains bargage content of an American extremist politician hugging members of an extremist organisation. "Code Pink" is Pro-Russia, Pro-Iran (the IR), Pro-Hamas and Pro-Chinese (The CCP). It is even financed by the Chinese Communist Party (and given what we know from experience most likely by Russia and Iran as well, directly or indirectly). Code Pink may be wrong about the Ukraine situation and spouting Kremlin propaganda but just because it's "Pro-Putin" doesn't mean its stance on Israel is wrong. They may be posting anti-Sionist content for wrong reasons, or maybe even for the right reasons while unknowingly helping spread misinformation to help Russia/China/Etc. but that doesn't disqualify certain facts they're pointing. I totally condemn Hamas attacks. The Hamas leaders aren't fighting for the right cause. For them it's about power and control, and money. But for the people living in Palestine it's a fight for their life. When you're born into violence and lived under the Israeli oppression and bombings your mind grows desperate and angry. Many are ready to join Hamas simply because they want to resists Israel's apartheid-politics, and in Hamas they're brainwashed to believe that every single Israeli person is guilty and deserves to die. This is not right but Israel has made the circumstances fruitful for that kind of extremism to bloom. Many Palestinians support Hamas because they see them as an act of resistance. They were celebrating the attacks because they thought it was a big counter attack in a war that's now lasted for decades. They didn't know about the atrocities done by Hamas fighters, at least not immediatelly afterwards. When the aftermath came public many didn't believe Israeli's claims. Israel has spouted so much propaganda and falsified claims, as well as done totally horrible things over the years, that they simply believed those dead babies, rapings, etc. were staged. No festival murderings had really happened. Israel is just trying to victimize itself so once again the West takes its side. That was/is the mindset in Gaza. And once again, Hamas ≠ Palestine. Israel has arrested (kidnapped) and tortured people to death in the West Bank area. That area isn't governed by Hamas. They're normal people trying to live in the peace. Still, they're displaced from their homes, brutally arrested for made up reasons and even allowed to encounter violence from the settlers without consequences. They have no human rights. They're arresting hundreds of kids every year for severe crimes such as throwing stones towards their tanks. In the prison they're being tortured, stripped naked, beaten and even raped. That is a fact. What Israel does is disgusting and putting most of the blame on Hamas is pure simplifying of the conflict. Most people also seem to ignore the fact thah Mossad pretty much created the current Hamas by largely funding them in the 80's to get them in power instead of the non-extremist centre-left democratic party Fatah which was deemed as more dangerous option for Israel's hegemony in the area.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Jul 8, 2024 15:18:13 GMT -5
186,000 Gazan's Estimated Dead (conservative figure)
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Post by Sadie on Jul 8, 2024 16:29:37 GMT -5
186,000 Gazan's Estimated Dead (conservative figure) There truly are no words at this point
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Post by mimmihopps on Jul 26, 2024 4:38:44 GMT -5
Netanyahu got applaused at the US Congress for his crime. How FFS?!
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Post by carlober on Jul 26, 2024 9:58:36 GMT -5
Netanyahu is slowly drifting into the list that includes the various Putins, Trumps, Hitlers etc. History will not be kind to him.
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Post by Day Tripper on Jul 29, 2024 3:15:33 GMT -5
Several doctors have reported the Gaza situation to be the worst humanitarian crisis they've ever seen.
The biggest problem they've now uncovered are the tiny bomb fragments found in children's bodies. These are unlike any fragment grenades used before. The bomb's are not in NATO-standard so they're likely new Israel-made cluster munitions.
The fragments are so tiny that they don't penetrate walls or military gear. But they do hurt civilians effectively and those wounds are very hard to operate because they usually cause several entry points in the body that needs operating. And since Israel have bombed down all the hospitals they don't have resources to help all those children affected by the cluster munitions.
Israel have tried to make excuses that they're only targeting terrorists and bombing places with known terrorist hideout. But the use of that kind of cluster munitions disproves that. Those aren't weapons used to bomb specific targets, they're only used to hurt as many people as possible. Not even necessarily kill them but wound them badly.
Another thing those doctors have reported are gunshot wounds in the head on children. There have been plenty of them. It's so systematic that those doctors believe Israeli forces are killing those children on purpose.
What happens in Gaza is so cruel that I just can't believe there are still western leaders taking Israel's side. I will personally not support anyone who's on their side. I hope Kamala Harris does something instead of that useless old fool Biden, but I doubt it.
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