Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 476
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Post by Lundblad on Oct 18, 2024 4:52:56 GMT -5
So now this islamist tyrant is portrayed as some peaceful freedom fighter. Disgusting! The Pro-Hamas left might want to get an idea of the founding principles of Hamas. This is the crap they are defending. This is in effect the pre-medieval principles they think should govern the Palestinian people. So in your mind, there is nothing that is meaningful or heartfelt in his words? Nothing relatable? Have you imagined how you might act in his shoes, if you were in his situation? I haven't verified the source, but I saw someone claiming that he was BORN in a refugee camp, presumably at an earlier time when his family was being attacked and displaced from their home. I'm sure that's an all too common tale shared among Palestinians. Do you recognize the right of Palestinians to resist their occupation, apartheid and genocide?
If I was in his shoes, I would probably be dead a lot earlier. It is in the nature of an organization like Hamas, that the most brutal conscious-free and vicious people survive and rise. This man was a monster, no matter how "just" his cause might have been (remember that Hamas' goal is not only about a Palestinian state, it is about erasing the Jewish people from the face of the earth and to enslave the Palestinian people under sharia law). I recognize that Palestinian nationalism is a just cause, just as I believe that Zionism is. I don't recognize the right of an islamist terrorist organization to murder and enslave its own people and other people. And there is no justification to send thousands of savages to rape, molest and murder innocent young people in a kibbutz or at a music festival, even if you were born in a refugee camp (which he indeed was). Most people having being born in refugee camps don't become cold-blooded mass murderers. It is not an excuse for his or his organisation's actions. |
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Lundblad
Oasis Roadie
Nothing ever lasts forever
Posts: 476
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Post by Lundblad on Oct 18, 2024 4:57:36 GMT -5
I wrote down some of his claims (notice how he talks really quickly so that he sounds sooo intelligent when he says stupid things. A bit like JD Vance does): "Meanwhile in Ukraine, they've struck deep within Russian territory several times, as deep as 300 miles from the border. We know that Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet." He is careful to not say it out loud, but it is underlying in his reasoning that he thinks that Ukraine's defence is unjustified or wrong.Your very first point avoids addressing the substance of their claim. Then you put words in their mouth ... That's called a straw man argument. It's another fallacy.
When the premise is flawed, so is the conclusion. The premises must be valid in order to reach the conclusion. That is the only way an argument can be sound. This just isn't a good way to begin.
' You may want to avoid those condenscending reviews of how I write my posts and reply to the content of the post instead. I don't really get what you want me to adress here – It is of course a fact that Ukraine has struck Russia inside its borders? He thinks that it is wrong, I don't. I wrote in the post why. |
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Oct 18, 2024 5:03:20 GMT -5
Sameh Khadr Hassan Al-Asali got justice today with Sinead apparent death. Raise your hands if you cheered for Iran, keep your hands raised if you knew Sinwar gave the order to hit someone in the bunker he was in.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 18, 2024 14:51:19 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 18, 2024 15:08:24 GMT -5
So in your mind, there is nothing that is meaningful or heartfelt in his words? Nothing relatable? Have you imagined how you might act in his shoes, if you were in his situation? I haven't verified the source, but I saw someone claiming that he was BORN in a refugee camp, presumably at an earlier time when his family was being attacked and displaced from their home. I'm sure that's an all too common tale shared among Palestinians. Do you recognize the right of Palestinians to resist their occupation, apartheid and genocide?
If I was in his shoes, I would probably be dead a lot earlier. It is in the nature of an organization like Hamas, that the most brutal conscious-free and vicious people survive and rise. This man was a monster, no matter how "just" his cause might have been (remember that Hamas' goal is not only about a Palestinian state, it is about erasing the Jewish people from the face of the earth and to enslave the Palestinian people under sharia law). I recognize that Palestinian nationalism is a just cause, just as I believe that Zionism is. I don't recognize the right of an islamist terrorist organization to murder and enslave its own people and other people. And there is no justification to send thousands of savages to rape, molest and murder innocent young people in a kibbutz or at a music festival, even if you were born in a refugee camp (which he indeed was). Most people having being born in refugee camps don't become cold-blooded mass murderers. It is not an excuse for his or his organisation's actions. I feel like you did not satisfactorily answer my last question. In fact, it seems you equated the right of Palestinians to fight against their occupation, apartheid and genocide to that of Palestinian nationalism, which I wholly reject. I also reject the notion that nationalism is ever a good thing for the world no matter which country holds it as an ideal.
So I'll ask again, hoping for a more direct response: Do you recognize the right of Palestinians to resist their occupation, apartheid and genocide?
The above is a Yes/No question. If you could also add why you respond with Yes or No, that would be helpful to understand your position.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 18, 2024 15:37:09 GMT -5
Your very first point avoids addressing the substance of their claim. Then you put words in their mouth ... That's called a straw man argument. It's another fallacy.
When the premise is flawed, so is the conclusion. The premises must be valid in order to reach the conclusion. That is the only way an argument can be sound. This just isn't a good way to begin.
' You may want to avoid those condenscending reviews of how I write my posts and reply to the content of the post instead. I don't really get what you want me to adress here – It is of course a fact that Ukraine has struck Russia inside its borders? He thinks that it is wrong, I don't. I wrote in the post why. The content of your post is fallacious, (at least your very first point there). Why should anyone waste their time responding to an argument which they identify as unsound? I ask that earnestly. I don't intend to cause offense. I did respond to the content of your post. Granted, not ALL of your post, but certainly for that first claim. You made the SAME mistake twice in a row, even after I called it out the first time, which you ignored acknowledging.
So if you want to take it point by point so we can actually determine the validity of your premises and whether or not they support your conclusion. We can do that.
In terms of what I want you to address, I just want you to craft an argument with valid premises. In that, you don't fill in the gaps of what you think somebody is thinking, no assumptions, no ad hominems. Avoid the basic logical fallacies. All you have to do is respond to what they actually say, in context when you disagree with them. Clearly state your reasons for disagreement. And ideally, support the claim with evidence, if possible.
I understand that not everyone has a firm grasp on how to craft logical arguments. And that's fine. But when it's pointed out, at least try to do better. I take it very seriously for an issue as important as what is happening in the Middle East currently.
Lives are literally at stake. And we must do everything we can to avoid spreading misinformation. Think about how someone unfamiliar with the situation, who stumbles across your post, who doesn't possess the skill to spot fallacious reasoning, how they might then become misinformed. Because they take what you said as truth, when it was merely your opinion.
That's a big problem when lives may depend on how the situation is perceived by the public. By people such as us, who may place pressure on politicians to do something. We must be concerned with the soundness of our arguments.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 19, 2024 10:27:14 GMT -5
For context, this is referencing the letter to the President claiming-
"This letter and the appendix show probative evidence that the human toll in Gaza since October is far higher than is understood in the United States. It is likely that the death toll from this conflict is already greater than 118,908, an astonishing 5.4% of Gaza's population," |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 21, 2024 10:18:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. Yes, my point with the music forum was maybe a bit cryptic, but I just thought that it is a bit ironic that people equal the actions of a democracy defending itself against terror with the actions of a terror group that killed and raped young people at a music festival, at a music forum. Yes, the killing must stop, but Iran and Hamas are the aggressors – not Israel. If they respect Israel's right to exist, it they stop trying to kill jews in the most gruesome way possible and release the hostages, the killing will stop. Unfortunately that is the reality of the situation  It is war, and war is a horrible thing. What a bizarre assessment of the situation. No-one should respect Israel’s “right to exist”, for instance, because no such right exists. Settler-colonial states have no legitimate claim to the land they are built on, and Israel has been an inherently colonial project since Europeans first dreamed of “colonising Palestine” by “spiriting the native penniless population across the border”, in the words of Theodore Herzl. The nature of Israel as a colonialist state was understood by the Zionists themselves almost a century before Hamas was founded - the JCA which undertook much of the creation of the Zionist para-state across the 1930's stood for the "Jewish Colonisation Association", after all. And as well as negating any imagined “right to exist”, this inherent nature of the Israeli state makes them the aggressor by definition, something which was also understood well before the current “conflict” emerged; in 1923, Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky wrote an essay called “The Iron Wall”, where he admitted: -------------------------------------------------------- “It is impossible to obtain the consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting Palestine from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. I suggest [my readers] consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried out with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.”
He went on: “Every native population resists colonists as long as it has the hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. This is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains the hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of Palestine into the Land of Israel”. --------------------------------------------------------Words, there, from six decades before the formation of Hamas. Unless Doctor Who is involved, the timeline seems odd. It's almost as if the terrorist opposition to Israel (which, still, by any metric, commits a great deal less violence than Israel itself), did not fall out the sky having being dropped by the Magic Terrorism Fairy. It grew out of the injustices inherent to a settler-colonial ethno-state. I don’t bless such an entity with any imagined “right to exist”; it is the aggressor against its resistance by definition, since it was and is impossible to maintain a state like Israel without the violent subjugation and ethnic cleansing of the rightful populace. What does have the right to exist, therefore, is a free Palestine, with all the newspapers and schools and networks and places of worship which the Arab population had built there when the settlers arrived, most of which has been bombed out of existence now, with the children who should benefit from them similarly left blown to pieces in the rubble. Just like in British India and in Apartheid South Africa, no peace can be hoped for while such a structure exists. It might be the regular “mowing the lawn” operations which Israel has used to terrorise Gaza since the 2000's, it might be the shooting of random Palestinian fisherman if they roam too far into the water. It might be the Nakba or it might be the full-on holocaust that is being perpetrated now, with Einsatzgruppen-style holes in the ground being dug for the corpses of exterminated children and the images of Muslim hands reaching out of the flames of fire-bombed hospitals, but violence is the only outcome of the insistence of a “right to exist” of such a state. And it all goes back to those 1890’s diaries of Theodore Herzl. It all goes back to that core dream to “spirit the penniless population across the border”. That band of Arabs, the Palestinians - shiftable, amorphous, rootless, as understood by the colonists - have revealed over a century of occupation that they will not be spirited anywhere. That is their land and those are their borders. That is their Palestine and it should be free. The only other option is their complete genocide, which is the option being taken every day before our eyes on social media. There is no context which could justify it. In the words of Yusuf Diya Al-Khalidi, a Palestinian leader, in his 1899 letter to Herzl himself: ----------------------------- “The world is big enough. Dear God, let Palestine be left alone.” |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 21, 2024 20:23:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply. Yes, my point with the music forum was maybe a bit cryptic, but I just thought that it is a bit ironic that people equal the actions of a democracy defending itself against terror with the actions of a terror group that killed and raped young people at a music festival, at a music forum. Yes, the killing must stop, but Iran and Hamas are the aggressors – not Israel. If they respect Israel's right to exist, it they stop trying to kill jews in the most gruesome way possible and release the hostages, the killing will stop. Unfortunately that is the reality of the situation It is war, and war is a horrible thing. What a bizarre assessment of the situation. No-one should respect Israel’s “right to exist”, for instance, because no such right exists. Settler-colonial states have no legitimate claim to the land they are built on, and Israel has been an inherently colonial project since Europeans first dreamed of “colonising Palestine” by “spiriting the native penniless population across the border”, in the words of Theodore Herzl. The nature of Israel as a colonialist state was understood by the Zionists themselves almost a century before Hamas was founded - the JCA which undertook much of the creation of the Zionist para-state across the 1930's stood for the "Jewish Colonisation Association", after all. And as well as negating any imagined “right to exist”, this inherent nature of the Israeli state makes them the aggressor by definition, something which was also understood well before the current “conflict” emerged; in 1923, Zionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky wrote an essay called “The Iron Wall”, where he admitted: -------------------------------------------------------- “It is impossible to obtain the consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting Palestine from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. I suggest [my readers] consider all the precedents with which they are acquainted, and see whether there is one solitary instance of any colonisation being carried out with the consent of the native population. There is no such precedent.”
He went on: “Every native population resists colonists as long as it has the hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. This is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains the hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of Palestine into the Land of Israel”. --------------------------------------------------------Words, there, from six decades before the formation of Hamas. Unless Doctor Who is involved, the timeline seems odd. It's almost as if the terrorist opposition to Israel (which, still, by any metric, commits a great deal less violence than Israel itself), did not fall out the sky having being dropped by the Magic Terrorism Fairy. It grew out of the injustices inherent to a settler-colonial ethno-state. I don’t bless such an entity with any imagined “right to exist”; it is the aggressor against its resistance by definition, since it was and is impossible to maintain a state like Israel without the violent subjugation and ethnic cleansing of the rightful populace. What does have the right to exist, therefore, is a free Palestine, with all the newspapers and schools and networks and places of worship which the Arab population had built there when the settlers arrived, most of which has been bombed out of existence now, with the children who should benefit from them similarly left blown to pieces in the rubble. Just like in British India and in Apartheid South Africa, no peace can be hoped for while such a structure exists. It might be the regular “mowing the lawn” operations which Israel has used to terrorise Gaza since the 2000's, it might be the shooting of random Palestinian fisherman if they roam too far into the water. It might be the Nakba or it might be the full-on holocaust that is being perpetrated now, with Einsatzgruppen-style holes in the ground being dug for the corpses of exterminated children and the images of Muslim hands reaching out of the flames of fire-bombed hospitals, but violence is the only outcome of the insistence of a “right to exist” of such a state. And it all goes back to those 1890’s diaries of Theodore Herzl. It all goes back to that core dream to “spirit the penniless population across the border”. That band of Arabs, the Palestinians - shiftable, amorphous, rootless, as understood by the colonists - have revealed over a century of occupation that they will not be spirited anywhere. That is their land and those are their borders. That is their Palestine and it should be free. The only other option is their complete genocide, which is the option being taken every day before our eyes on social media. There is no context which could justify it. In the words of Yusuf Diya Al-Khalidi, a Palestinian leader, in his 1899 letter to Herzl himself: ----------------------------- “The world is big enough. Dear God, let Palestine be left alone.”Great post. |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 24, 2024 14:16:07 GMT -5
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Oct 26, 2024 2:22:29 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 27, 2024 12:18:00 GMT -5
What would convince you that it's a genocide? What line needs to be crossed to make you go "Oh, shit, that's wrong. That's genocide. We have to stop this." What would it take? |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 27, 2024 14:08:21 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 28, 2024 14:55:41 GMT -5
What would convince you that it's a genocide? What line needs to be crossed to make you go "Oh, shit, that's wrong. That's genocide. We have to stop this." What would it take? I have asked Elie this question in various ways multiple times throughout this thread and she has not responded a single time with an answer to that question. What should we make of that? |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 28, 2024 14:56:04 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 28, 2024 20:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Oct 29, 2024 13:45:47 GMT -5
Stunning admission for those who haven't been paying close attention.
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Post by Sadie on Oct 31, 2024 14:19:32 GMT -5
Cowardly piece of shit
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Post by Manualex on Oct 31, 2024 15:30:28 GMT -5
SadieHere's an unedited footage of the exchange
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Post by The Thieving Magpie on Nov 1, 2024 0:27:50 GMT -5
I don't like to talk political things in my 2nd language, English.
First of all, Personally I don't support any Genocide.
I want to mention about Thom Yorke's concert incidents.
I think it's not easy to calls support which ones, because even Politicians and we have pros and cons about this situation.
So thom avoid mention to this war because it's too difficult problems to us.
and it's concert not debate tournament, need a lot of time to think this problems. can't say anything easily, right?
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 4, 2024 13:17:25 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 4, 2024 17:32:23 GMT -5
Who else can't stand this lying gaslighting prick named Matt Miller? Clearly a sociopath.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 5, 2024 17:08:30 GMT -5
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 7, 2024 23:45:15 GMT -5
Just a reminder that a terrorist is anyone they deem is a "terrorist". There is no standard by which 'terrorists' in the eyes of Israel, are judged, other than by ancestry.
Meaning innocent Israeli citizens with Palestinian relatives who are "terrorists" will be removed from their homes and banned from the country. (If this passes)
If you think this sounds like The Nuremberg Laws ... it fucking does.
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 12, 2024 18:57:41 GMT -5
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It is war, and war is a horrible thing.
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5