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Post by lubeck on Dec 19, 2022 4:42:29 GMT -5
To see Ronnie O'Sullivan and Lionel Messi become undisputed GOATs in the same year has been a joy. People who bring art, elegance, rapture, and transcendence to their sport should always be rewarded. Mbappe is something special, too. He will join that Pele, Maradona, Messi pantheon, if he hasn't already.
He hasn't even reached Henry level yet, so Pele... Guys, I agree this final was awesome cos of the emotional roller coaster. But France was pathetic for 70 minutes. It could have easily been 5-0 for Argentina before Mbappe pen. How many missed passes ? It might seem weird for anglo saxons, but for me and for a lot of french, we're romantic so we want our team (in any sport) to be flamboyant, offensive and artistic. So seeing this team not even shooting on targets for 70 minutes and with the only plan to score with a Mbappe run or a header... I mean the stats say it all really, Argentina deserves it big time. One good thing though, we have a cool new generation. Tchouaméni has a lot of potential, despite his missed Pen, for instance. |
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Post by mimmihopps on Dec 19, 2022 6:59:21 GMT -5
Congrats Argentina. You deserve to win.
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 19, 2022 8:56:09 GMT -5
I mean our government is shit but the way they do politics now they would have given the national team 20 tanks if he had only asked
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Post by Manualex on Dec 19, 2022 8:58:18 GMT -5
I mean our government is shit but the way they do politics now they would have given the national team 20 tanks if he had only asked Nah, Macron is a hypocrite he was bonding with the team way more than I remember seeing anyone before this world cup. Also funny that a certain Kylian didn't wanted to do anything with him after losing the final. |
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 19, 2022 9:20:44 GMT -5
I mean our government is shit but the way they do politics now they would have given the national team 20 tanks if he had only asked Nah, Macron is a hypocrite he was bonding with the team way more than I remember seeing anyone before this world cup. Also funny that a certain Kylian didn't wanted to do anything with him after losing the final. I know, it’s just funny that he uses this as an excuse when that really had nothing to do with losing the game against Japan. It’s even funnier that he says “football is too politicized” after the biggest sportswashing event in recent history |
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Post by webm@ster on Dec 19, 2022 10:36:16 GMT -5
One of the GOATS of sports broadcasters!!
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Post by norkbauer on Dec 19, 2022 11:03:58 GMT -5
Couldn't be more happier for Argentina and Messi, the 3rd World Cup is very well deserved. Congrats to all Argentinians.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 19, 2022 11:27:20 GMT -5
To see Ronnie O'Sullivan and Lionel Messi become undisputed GOATs in the same year has been a joy. People who bring art, elegance, rapture, and transcendence to their sport should always be rewarded. Mbappe is something special, too. He will join that Pele, Maradona, Messi pantheon, if he hasn't already.
He hasn't even reached Henry level yet, so Pele... Guys, I agree this final was awesome cos of the emotional roller coaster. But France was pathetic for 70 minutes. It could have easily been 5-0 for Argentina before Mbappe pen. How many missed passes ? It might seem weird for anglo saxons, but for me and for a lot of french, we're romantic so we want our team (in any sport) to be flamboyant, offensive and artistic. So seeing this team not even shooting on targets for 70 minutes and with the only plan to score with a Mbappe run or a header... I mean the stats say it all really, Argentina deserves it big time. One good thing though, we have a cool new generation. Tchouaméni has a lot of potential, despite his missed Pen, for instance. He's 23 and he's already got the record for most goals scored in World Cup finals. He damn-near drove his country like the Stig to two consecutive World Cups. He's a World Cup winner,, arguably the most iconic player of his generation, and he has that magic when you feel everyone tense when he gets the ball. Okay, you're right, it's hyperbole to put him with Pele now; he needs to win better leagues and the UCL, but I don't think he's as far away as you might think, and I also don't think it's madness to think he will be right there in the GOAT conversation by the time he retires. He's special, and he's got fifteen years left. And globe , as a player, I fucking love Maradona. He's the only other player than Messi that gives that rapturous feeling to football. There's this thing in Buddhism that there are sixty million moments in the click of a finger, and when you see those two at their best, it's like watching a human being completely alive in every single one of them. It's nirvana. It's magic. But, and this is my honest opinion, to think Maradona is as good as Messi is to kid yourself. Messi has five hundred more goals than him. Not fifty. Not one-hundred. Not even one-fifty. Five hundred. That's almost double what Diego scored in his entire career, just as the gap between them. That's not a gap that you can dismiss with any kind of tackles-were-real-tackles-then stuff, it's an absolute universe of space. Assists weren't recorded in Diego's day, but since we know Messi has more assists than Maradona has goals, Lionel probably beats him at his own game, too. You can say football was rougher then, I'll say that nutrition and physicality and sports science have drastically improved, too. Maradona would be dumped out of any modern top league the second he tried to play after doing coke-and-drink binges more than once a month, never mind a week. Just wouldn't cut it. Would he fix up? Maybe. He still wouldn't do what Messi has done. Maradona's shining light, of course, is the World Cup and Argentina. Now, even there, Messi is out of his shadow. More goals for Argentina. More goals at the World Cup. Only player ever to score in each knock-out round in one tournament. Only player ever to be Player of the Tournament at two World Cups. Most goal contributions in World Cup history. I love what Diego could do with a football, it's almost religious in it's elegance and power and iconic nature. But reality beats romance, and Messi is simply a better footballer than him - and anyone else, too. |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Dec 19, 2022 12:07:52 GMT -5
He hasn't even reached Henry level yet, so Pele... Guys, I agree this final was awesome cos of the emotional roller coaster. But France was pathetic for 70 minutes. It could have easily been 5-0 for Argentina before Mbappe pen. How many missed passes ? It might seem weird for anglo saxons, but for me and for a lot of french, we're romantic so we want our team (in any sport) to be flamboyant, offensive and artistic. So seeing this team not even shooting on targets for 70 minutes and with the only plan to score with a Mbappe run or a header... I mean the stats say it all really, Argentina deserves it big time. One good thing though, we have a cool new generation. Tchouaméni has a lot of potential, despite his missed Pen, for instance. He's 23 and he's already got the record for most goals scored in World Cup finals. He damn-near drove his country like the Stig to two consecutive World Cups. He's a World Cup winner,, arguably the most iconic player of his generation, and he has that magic when you feel everyone tense when he gets the ball. Okay, you're right, it's hyperbole to put him with Pele now; he needs to win better leagues and the UCL, but I don't think he's as far away as you might think, and I also don't think it's madness to think he will be right there in the GOAT conversation by the time he retires. He's special, and he's got fifteen years left. And globe , as a player, I fucking love Maradona. He's the only other player than Messi that gives that rapturous feeling to football. There's this thing in Buddhism that there are sixty million moments in the click of a finger, and when you see those two at their best, it's like watching a human being completely alive in every single one of them. It's nirvana. It's magic. But, and this is my honest opinion, to think Maradona is as good as Messi is to kid yourself. Messi has five hundred more goals than him. Not fifty. Not one-hundred. Not even one-fifty. Five hundred. That's almost double what Diego scored in his entire career, just as the gap between them. That's not a gap that you can dismiss with any kind of tackles-were-real-tackles-then stuff, it's an absolute universe of space. Assists weren't recorded in Diego's day, but since we know Messi has more assists than Maradona has goals, Lionel probably beats him at his own game, too. You can say football was rougher then, I'll say that nutrition and physicality and sports science have drastically improved, too. Maradona would be dumped out of any modern top league the second he tried to play after doing coke-and-drink binges more than once a month, never mind a week. Just wouldn't cut it. Would he fix up? Maybe. He still wouldn't do what Messi has done. Maradona's shining light, of course, is the World Cup and Argentina. Now, even there, Messi is out of his shadow. More goals for Argentina. More goals at the World Cup. Only player ever to score in each knock-out round in one tournament. Only player ever to be Player of the Tournament at two World Cups. Most goal contributions in World Cup history. I love what Diego could do with a football, it's almost religious in it's elegance and power and iconic nature. But reality beats romance, and Messi is simply a better footballer than him - and anyone else, too. Always worth having Pele in the conversation. |
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 19, 2022 12:26:50 GMT -5
He's 23 and he's already got the record for most goals scored in World Cup finals. He damn-near drove his country like the Stig to two consecutive World Cups. He's a World Cup winner,, arguably the most iconic player of his generation, and he has that magic when you feel everyone tense when he gets the ball. Okay, you're right, it's hyperbole to put him with Pele now; he needs to win better leagues and the UCL, but I don't think he's as far away as you might think, and I also don't think it's madness to think he will be right there in the GOAT conversation by the time he retires. He's special, and he's got fifteen years left. Always worth having Pele in the conversation. On international level, he's definitely the GOAT. |
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 19, 2022 12:35:07 GMT -5
There’s only one GOAT
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Post by eva on Dec 19, 2022 13:16:51 GMT -5
Love this  |
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Post by gottabecrazy on Dec 19, 2022 17:04:14 GMT -5
As an argentine, I'm happy. But I'm also happy reading your comments, very respectful and with the fair knowledge to debate and not discuss. It was a hell of a match. Mbappe is a beast, an animal as we say here. He has all the potential to be the next big thing, he needs to find his Alex Ferguson, someone able to guide him. He seems to be more arrogant than CR7 and he is only 23.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 20, 2022 7:26:00 GMT -5
Since now is the time for the predictable GOAT talk, my top five:
1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Pele
4. Cristiano
5. Gerd Muller
For me, to be one of the top-tier Greatest players, you have to be able to say two things:
1. I was the best player of my generation.
2. I proved it on the biggest stage.
The top three can all say those things, Cristiano can't. However, his overall achievements and goalscoring record mean he has to be in the top five, even if beneath those three stars of the last three generations. Of course, part of that is unfair: if Ronaldo had been French, he'd probably have won the World Cup. If he had been born in another generation, he would have almost certainly been the best. But he's not, and he didn't, and he's not.
That's sports, unfortunately. Particularly team sports.
Plus, it's not just that he didn't win the World Cup, like, say, Cruyff didn't. Cruyff showed he was the best in '74. Even if Messi had lost that final last week, he proved he was the best of his generation again. Ronaldo's never done that, on the biggest stage in football. You can say that Portugal never had a great side, but it's not like he plays for Indonesia. They had Leao, Felix, Bernardo, Fernandes, Cancelo, and Ruben Dias all playing in a system for him this year and he was still left diving for pens and celebrating goals that he didn't even score.
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 20, 2022 8:37:04 GMT -5
I was trying to make a top 5 list and its just not possible. There are too many players too choose from, the list above doesn’t even include a defender which is incredibly disrespectful. Cannavaro for example carried Italy to the World Cup title in 2006. So I’d rather put out a starting 11 and some subs.
Manuel Neuer(Dino Zoff)
Philipp Lahm Franz Beckenbauer Paolo Maldini Roberto Carlos
(Cafu) (Franco Baresi) (Sergio Ramos) (Paul Breitner)
Lothar Matthäus
(Xavi)
Maradona Zidane
(Johann Cruyff) (Alfredo di Stefano)
Christiano Ronaldo Pele Lionel Messi
(Marco van Basten) (Gerd Müller) (Ferenc Puskás)
This is just off the top of my head. There are so many amazing players left out and I have a slight German bias but there you go.
To think there’s one guy better than all of them, especially in a team sport, I don’t like the concept, it’s not fair to the rest of the team.
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Post by lubeck on Dec 20, 2022 9:02:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't believe in a GOAT in collective sport (I actually don't believe it much more in individual sport in all fairness ), cos there are too many parameters. For instance, ask 10 fifty yo ManU fans, all of them will have Cantona in their list. And tbf, Cantona was banned from France team, but he was an insane striker, and I'm sure many people in "older" generation would consider a way better player than Mbappe, which would lead to make a lot of younger generation roll their eyes (Cantowho ?) |
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 20, 2022 9:14:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't believe in a GOAT in collective sport (I actually don't believe it much more in individual sport in all fairness ), cos there are too many parameters. For instance, ask 10 fifty yo ManU fans, all of them will have Cantona in their list. And tbf, Cantona was banned from France team, but he was an insane striker, and I'm sure many people in "older" generation would consider a way better player than Mbappe, which would lead to make a lot of younger generation roll their eyes (Cantowho ?) Ask fans who was the best player on liverpools PL winning team. Most of them would say Salah, when in reality it was Virgil van Dijk. He should have won at least one ballon d'or but of course Messi won that year. Because he had all the stats, but they don’t tell the whole story. |
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 20, 2022 9:30:11 GMT -5
I was trying to make a top 5 list and its just not possible. There are too many players too choose from, the list above doesn’t even include a defender which is incredibly disrespectful. Would you honestly have a defender in your top five? It's not disrespectful in the slightest not to, I don't think. Same with, say, keepers. Or, indeed, anyone else who doesn't make your top five. I get you can say "it's a team sport" and "each position has it's own requirements" and "you can't compare generations/positions", which is all true, but come on, it's just a bit of fun. Every sport has these discussions, because it's entertaining every once in a while. I'm sure Beckenbauer won't mind me not having him there. But you're right, an all-time XI is a better way of quantifying things in a team sport. Mine:
Neuer
Alves - Maldini - Beckenbauer - Cole
Busquets
Maradona - Zidane
Messi - Pele - CR7 |
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Post by RocketMan on Dec 20, 2022 10:06:31 GMT -5
I was trying to make a top 5 list and its just not possible. There are too many players too choose from, the list above doesn’t even include a defender which is incredibly disrespectful. Would you honestly have a defender in your top five? It's not disrespectful in the slightest not to, I don't think. Same with, say, keepers. Or, indeed, anyone else who doesn't make your top five. I get you can say "it's a team sport" and "each position has it's own requirements" and "you can't compare generations/positions", which is all true, but come on, it's just a bit of fun. Every sport has these discussions, because it's entertaining every once in a while. I'm sure Beckenbauer won't mind me not having him there. But you're right, an all-time XI is a better way of quantifying things in a team sport. Mine:
Neuer
Alves - Maldini - Beckenbauer - Cole
Busquets
Maradona - Zidane
Messi - Pele - CR7It depends on the definition of what makes an individual player „the best“. like how do we evaluate and individual performance in a team sport. Mostly we do it by looking at stats, and in this generation Messi and Ronaldo are by far superior to everybody else statistically. But I’d argue that Xavi for Barcelona or Modric for Real had just as much or an even bigger impact on the team’s success. Just based on the work they did for the team. Keeping a team in balance and shape throughout the season is just as important but it’s nothing you can see on a scoreboard. And they did it for their national team aswell. They just don’t standout because it’s not an offensive skill position. Their skills are more subtle but just as important Beckenbauers legend doesn’t just come from being a world class defender, he was also the playmaker, captain and backbone of the the German team and also Bayern Munich (three consecutive CL-Titles in the 70s). Gerd Müller scored the decisive goal in 74 but it was Beckenbauers marvelous performance against that Netherlands offense that won us the game. So would I rate Beckenbauer higher than Müller or the other way round. Both were standouts. It’s difficult And I love to debate these things aswell, just from a different angle I guess |
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 20, 2022 10:34:35 GMT -5
It depends on the definition of what makes an individual player „the best“. like how do we evaluate and individual performance in a team sport. Mostly we do it by looking at stats, and in this generation Messi and Ronaldo are by far superior to everybody else statistically. But I’d argue that Xavi for Barcelona or Modric for Real had just as much or an even bigger impact on the team’s success. Just based on the work they did for the team. Keeping a team in balance and shape throughout the season is just as important but it’s nothing you can see on a scoreboard. And they did it for their national team aswell. They just don’t standout because it’s not an offensive skill position. Their skills are more subtle but just as important Beckenbauers legend doesn’t just come from being a world class defender, he was also the playmaker, captain and backbone of the the German team and also Bayern Munich (three consecutive CL-Titles in the 70s). Gerd Müller scored the decisive goal in 74 but it was Beckenbauers marvelous performance against that Netherlands offense that won us the game. So would I rate Beckenbauer higher than Müller or the other way round. Both were standouts. It’s difficult And I love to debate these things aswell, just from a different angle I guess Well, there's so many factors, of course: tournament success, skill, aesthetic pleasure, statistics, longevity, importance to the team, even things like personality and iconic moments play a part for most people as well. I think the fact that attacking players display the most joyous, compelling skill is why people will always gravitate to them, and I don't think that's a bad thing. When a kid shows speed, dribbling, passing, and game intelligence at an academy, they don't put him at centre-back, after all. I appreciate the incredible qualities that a Beckenbauer or a Van Dijk have, but if I'm doing a top five, then for me, they can't touch the likes of Maradona/Pele/Messi/etc. I don't think that disrespects them or devalues their legacy; at that level of elite play, we're talking about once-in-a-generation talents with the ball. The icons. The ones that make the game feel magical. It's hard to have that when your main job is to make something not happen. Beckenbauer would make my top ten, though, and Neuer and Maldini and Ramos would be banging on the door. But I'd still have Cruyff and Ronaldo Nazario above all of them, and I make no apologies for it, if I'm honest. |
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Post by matt on Dec 21, 2022 11:51:19 GMT -5
Such a subjective debate and while I don't have any solid opinions on who is the greatest, seeing the rationale behind what people think greatness is is fascinating. It's almost a different game too. Messi and co have a wealth of fitness and conditioning techniques which helped them in a way that is unimaginable even twenty years ago. Plant Messi in a game from yesteryear and he would tear up everyone (as long as he isn't brutally assaulted and taken down). On a purely football level, I just can't see anyone better.
Because of the levels of fitness required, would somebody as supremely talented as Maradona make it? There's literally no room for complacency and lack of professionalism so probably not. But that's the sad thing about today's football. To be deprived of a story and character like Maradona's in today's world would be a massive shame. His immense flaws, extreme highs and extreme lows make him human and more relatable, on and off the field. The game back then was raw and primal in a way that the precision tooled robotic players of today aren't, what with their souls sucked with the malign influences of capitalism and commercialism.
Sometimes the greatest doesn't have to be the one with the greatest stats. It's the stories these players hold, the myths they conjure and the flaws they held while achieving something immense that inspires. The ones that represent humanity as it is. I think the game today lacks that element for the most part.
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Post by Guy Fawkes on Jan 11, 2023 20:05:20 GMT -5
That might be eva, she did put herself through medical school by working at Hòóters, after all…. Хвала. |
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Post by Guy Fawkes on Jan 13, 2023 4:48:17 GMT -5
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Post by oasisserbia on Jan 14, 2023 7:09:10 GMT -5
Thanks.
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Post by Guy Fawkes on Jan 15, 2023 9:26:54 GMT -5
I’m glad the next World Cup will be in the U.S. and not a country like that! Хвала. |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5