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Post by bt95 on Oct 31, 2018 19:39:20 GMT -5
Sad to say but surely he’s beyond the age of a completely successful artistic reinvention? It’s a step forward undoubtedly (and by far my favourite post-90s Oasis related album) but he needed to strike when the iron was hot. He needed an Achtung Baby moment in Oasis after Be Here Now. That should have been their Rattle & Hum - an overblown and somewhat self-indulgent piece that prompted a major rethink and musical reinvention. It wasn’t. Instead they hired some bloke from Gary Glitter knock off band Heavy Stereo. Maybe that argument is futile and perhaps age isn’t a factor. Perhaps the one thing that will really stop him from achieving a great reinvention is his aversion to artistic guidance (see bland ‘yes men’ producers like Sardy). He’s always been insecure about artistic guidance from someone else - Holmes definitely pushed the envelope to success and is the most influential producer he’s worked with but he can be pushed a lot more for sure. How far he’s willing to go is another matter. I think he did a pretty good job with Standing on the Shoulder of Giants as his Zooropa. And Gem had not anyhting to do with it. People always say that all the Oasis albums sound the same, well Giants sounds nothing like the first three albums. There isn't even a hit single. How does that record sound like Be Here Now? He made a mistake that he wanted to make another 'classic Oasis' album with Heathen Chemistry. Go Let It Out hit number one. Depends what your definition of a hit is I suppose (although you're right in that it's not considered a 'hit' in terms of Wonderwall etc) Go Let It Out is such a banger though. Honestly in my top 10 Oasis songs. |
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 2, 2018 20:19:16 GMT -5
Giants was never going to be a revolution, just the start of new and darker road. It could have been a very solid first step, too, with a slightly revised tracklist: STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS
1) Fuckin' in the Bushes 2) Go Let it Out 3) Who Feels Love? 4) Where Did it All Go Wrong? (Demo Version) 5) Let's All Make Believe 6) Gas Panic! 7) Sunday Morning Call 8) Full On (Liam Vox) 9) One Way Road 10) Roll it Over i always felt that album was a missed opportunity. it has tracks like Go Let it Out and Gas Panic, which were different to what they had done before and they sounded great and then it was surrounded by dross mum-rock like Sunday Morning Call. if they had a bit more quality control over the tracks on it and fully committed to making something different, maybe even spent a bit longer getting material together, it had the potential to be a great album. as it stands, it has some great moments surrounded by plodding crap. That's where i have to admire bands like Radiohead. when they go in a different direction, like they did with Kid A during that time, they go all in and commit to it rather than half in and playing it safe with the rest. Not saying Oasis should've gone all Kid A, but they showed flashes of being able to experiment a bit more. Noel should've gone bareback with his music but he always triple bagged it. |
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Post by Tales from The Mighty I on Nov 3, 2018 4:54:28 GMT -5
Giants was never going to be a revolution, just the start of new and darker road. It could have been a very solid first step, too, with a slightly revised tracklist: STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS
1) Fuckin' in the Bushes 2) Go Let it Out 3) Who Feels Love? 4) Where Did it All Go Wrong? (Demo Version) 5) Let's All Make Believe 6) Gas Panic! 7) Sunday Morning Call 8) Full On (Liam Vox) 9) One Way Road 10) Roll it Over 'Giants' choice of tracks by Noel were really odd that time around. To say that Noel should've made better decisions picking tracks for Giants would be a huge slap in the face to Noel though, as at the time, he was going through some actual hardships. Forget about 'this should've been their Zoorapa!'... no. This honestly should have been their Sgt. Peppers, and a lot of the outtakes, demos and other mixes that eventually made it to us here on the net can support this. Imagine if 'Revolution Song' had actually been finished for 'Giants'! |
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 3, 2018 7:21:40 GMT -5
Giants was never going to be a revolution, just the start of new and darker road. It could have been a very solid first step, too, with a slightly revised tracklist: STANDING ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS
1) Fuckin' in the Bushes 2) Go Let it Out 3) Who Feels Love? 4) Where Did it All Go Wrong? (Demo Version) 5) Let's All Make Believe 6) Gas Panic! 7) Sunday Morning Call 8) Full On (Liam Vox) 9) One Way Road 10) Roll it Over 'Giants' choice of tracks by Noel were really odd that time around. To say that Noel should've made better decisions picking tracks for Giants would be a huge slap in the face to Noel though, as at the time, he was going through some actual hardships. Forget about 'this should've been their Zoorapa!'... no. This honestly should have been their Sgt. Peppers, and a lot of the outtakes, demos and other mixes that eventually made it to us here on the net can support this. Imagine if 'Revolution Song' had actually been finished for 'Giants'!. Never got the whole thing about Revolution Song. it's a nice enough song but a typical Noel song and a bit cheesy. For me, that's exactly the stuff that shouldn't have been on that album and it rightly didn't go on, but some even worse stuff did. |
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Post by vespa on Nov 8, 2018 11:25:08 GMT -5
The reason they added icsal and pymwymi was solely to add bangers to a very melodic album and keep up the rock n roll tag ,had they picked the above track listing I think you’ve got there 3rd best album by far ..as kid A it’s complete garbage
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 11:30:25 GMT -5
Let's be honest... the reason SOTSOG can be a slog is b/c Little James is plunked down right in the middle. It's like if they had dropped The Nature of Reality down as track 4 on DOYS. Noel wanted to flip Liam a bone and we got PYMWYMI followed by LJ.  |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 8, 2018 11:58:23 GMT -5
The reason they added icsal and pymwymi was solely to add bangers to a very melodic album and keep up the rock n roll tag ,had they picked the above track listing I think you’ve got there 3rd best album by far ..as kid A it’s complete garbage I didn’t really like Noel going around all December 1999 on the North American tour basically saying the new album has “two turds” on it. |
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Post by matt on Nov 8, 2018 14:54:10 GMT -5
The reason they added icsal and pymwymi was solely to add bangers to a very melodic album and keep up the rock n roll tag ,had they picked the above track listing I think you’ve got there 3rd best album by far ..as kid A it’s complete garbage I didn’t really like Noel going around all December 1999 on the North American tour basically saying the new album has “two turds” on it. Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. I bet he was pissing himself when albums like Don’t Believe The Truth - which is in no way not much different in quality to anything released after 1997 - were winning awards. Must have thought ‘this shit pays for itself’. Now that success is not guaranteed under his own name, we’re actually seeing albums with more thought and effort put into them. |
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Post by noliamno on Nov 9, 2018 7:41:09 GMT -5
I didn’t really like Noel going around all December 1999 on the North American tour basically saying the new album has “two turds” on it. Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. Man, I'm having a hard time with the level of cynicism. I'm REALLY hoping you're wrong in this. This was the time I got on the Oasis train. The Masterplan was in the record shops and I bought that and SOTSOG about the same time. |
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Post by draper on Nov 9, 2018 7:56:43 GMT -5
I've always liked I Can See A Liar. It's not a classic at all, just a cool little rock n roll song.
Would've been rated better if it was a B-side.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 9, 2018 11:04:34 GMT -5
Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. Man, I'm having a hard time with the level of cynicism. I'm REALLY hoping you're wrong in this. This was the time I got on the Oasis train. The Masterplan was in the record shops and I bought that and SOTSOG about the same time. It was just a weird Noel comment said on multiple tv spots on that Christmas USA tour. We were all dying to get a new Oasis Record with this “new sound and era” of the band Noel promised. To say the album which was only 10 tracks had 2 shit ones on it made me pause. That didn’t make sense to me. The album wouldn’t be out for 2.5 months at that point. |
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 9, 2018 13:50:35 GMT -5
I didn’t really like Noel going around all December 1999 on the North American tour basically saying the new album has “two turds” on it. Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. I bet he was pissing himself when albums like Don’t Believe The Truth - which is in no way not much different in quality to anything released after 1997 - were winning awards. Must have thought ‘this shit pays for itself’. Now that success is not guaranteed under his own name, we’re actually seeing albums with more thought and effort put into them. i agree with that. i don't think he was phoning it in during Heathen Chemistry, he seemed genuinely interested in making a good album but the songs weren't there and producing it themselves was a bad idea. let's be fair though, Noel was somewhat of a control freak. i know you have to try and be somewhat democratic but would a younger Noel that was passionate about making great records let some of the turds brought by Andy, Liam & Gem onto albums? never mind some of the rubbish he was producing. i doubt it. The quality control dropped a lot by that point because he knew any album would sell and they could make big money going out on tour. Not to say he didn't give a shit at all, but there was definitely a bit of "fuck it, that'll do" about the later albums. |
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Post by noliamno on Nov 9, 2018 14:34:39 GMT -5
The quality control dropped a lot by that point because he knew any album would sell and they could make big money going out on tour. Not to say he didn't give a shit at all, but there was definitely a bit of "fuck it, that'll do" about the later albums. I agree with this whole heartedly. Noel spoke later of having some trouble coming up with really good tunes in the numbers that he had previously. Still, I am fond of SOTSOG. Hell, I listened to the DEMOS like a new album. |
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Post by popeyebonaparte on Nov 9, 2018 17:00:26 GMT -5
SOTSOG is amazing. I don't think there's one bad track on it. The production on Where Did It All Go Wrong is a bit sedate, true but the rest of it is amazing.
I do admit though that Noel could have put out a much better album when you see the tracks he had written at the time. The problem is that had he used tracks like Cigarettes In Hell or Just Getting Older he'd practically be singing half the album.
I think SOTSOG gets a bad rap, certainly from Noel. It has some of his finest songwriting on it. I mean who could argue with Roll It Over, Sunday Morning Call, Gas Panic! and Go Let It Out?
The greatest Oasis album in my opinion after Definitely Maybe and Be Here Now.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 9, 2018 17:49:15 GMT -5
I didn’t really like Noel going around all December 1999 on the North American tour basically saying the new album has “two turds” on it. Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. I bet he was pissing himself when albums like Don’t Believe The Truth - which is in no way not much different in quality to anything released after 1997 - were winning awards. Must have thought ‘this shit pays for itself’. Now that success is not guaranteed under his own name, we’re actually seeing albums with more thought and effort put into them. That's such a cop out and flies in the face of the evidence available. Songwriters just don't shit out an endless stream of great songs, it just doesn't happen whether you're Lennon or Dylan or Coldplay and it isn't because they aren't trying and are just 'phoning it in'. You could make small case for that in regard to SOTSOG, I believe Noel said because of the band changes it was an album he felt he needed to put out even though he had been having trouble writing songs and was lacking in inspiration at the time. But he spoke warmly of Heathen Chemistry, a record he seemed to enjoy making but the truth was he simply wasn't producing great tunes in the same numbers he had been previously. Do you really think Noel would have been singing Force of Nature if he had something better? Do you think he would have put A Quick Peep on there if had a huge classic on stand by? Or was it simply quality control was slipping and he really believed those were efforts of merit. He cared enough about DBTT to scrap it once and send everyone away to write some more songs and then to persist with it, recording it in a load of places before taking it to America. Every songwriter has there ups and downs even Weller on his own has put out some indifferent albums, Noel is having a decent phase right now and good on him. Its a tribute to Noel's talent that he has usually been able to write clutch of really good songs each album cycle, that doesn't happen for many who ahve been at it as long as him. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 9, 2018 18:05:33 GMT -5
SOTSOG is amazing. I don't think there's one bad track on it. The production on Where Did It All Go Wrong is a bit sedate, true but the rest of it is amazing. I do admit though that Noel could have put out a much better album when you see the tracks he had written at the time. The problem is that had he used tracks like Cigarettes In Hell or Just Getting Older he'd practically be singing half the album. I think SOTSOG gets a bad rap, certainly from Noel. It has some of his finest songwriting on it. I mean who could argue with Roll It Over, Sunday Morning Call, Gas Panic! and Go Let It Out? The greatest Oasis album in my opinion after Definitely Maybe and Be Here Now. That was a problem and Noel knew it too. He started singing the majority of songs he wrote. Liam didn’t really sing any of the SOTSOG b-sides. You could probably make a pretty good Noel solo album from his material between 1999-2002. PS........Sunday Morning Call is one of his most boring songs. Just doesn’t go anywhere. Sounds too repetitive and plodding. I feel the same for the studio version of Let There Be Love. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 9, 2018 18:09:15 GMT -5
Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. I bet he was pissing himself when albums like Don’t Believe The Truth - which is in no way not much different in quality to anything released after 1997 - were winning awards. Must have thought ‘this shit pays for itself’. Now that success is not guaranteed under his own name, we’re actually seeing albums with more thought and effort put into them. That's such a cop out and flies in the face of the evidence available. Songwriters just don't shit out an endless stream of great songs, it just doesn't happen whether you're Lennon or Dylan or Coldplay and it isn't because they aren't trying and are just 'phoning it in'. You could make small case for that in regard to SOTSOG, I believe Noel said because of the band changes it was an album he felt he needed to put out even though he had been having trouble writing songs and was lacking in inspiration at the time. But he spoke warmly of Heathen Chemistry, a record he seemed to enjoy making but the truth was he simply wasn't producing great tunes in the same numbers he had been previously. Do you really think Noel would have been singing Force of Nature if he had something better? Do you think he would have put A Quick Peep on there if had a huge classic on stand by? Or was it simply quality control was slipping and he really believed those were efforts of merit. He cared enough about DBTT to scrap it once and send everyone away to write some more songs and then to persist with it, recording it in a load of places before taking it to America. Every songwriter has there ups and downs even Weller on his own has put out some indifferent albums, Noel is having a decent phase right now and good on him. Its a tribute to Noel's talent that he has usually been able to write clutch of really good songs each album cycle, that doesn't happen for many who ahve been at it as long as him. Even after all the work Noel and company put into DBTT the two best songs on the album didn’t involve Sardy or the LA trip. They were thrown on towards the end when the record executives feared the album had no hit singles. And right they were. Noel almost left off two #1 singles. |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 9, 2018 18:46:13 GMT -5
That's such a cop out and flies in the face of the evidence available. Songwriters just don't shit out an endless stream of great songs, it just doesn't happen whether you're Lennon or Dylan or Coldplay and it isn't because they aren't trying and are just 'phoning it in'. You could make small case for that in regard to SOTSOG, I believe Noel said because of the band changes it was an album he felt he needed to put out even though he had been having trouble writing songs and was lacking in inspiration at the time. But he spoke warmly of Heathen Chemistry, a record he seemed to enjoy making but the truth was he simply wasn't producing great tunes in the same numbers he had been previously. Do you really think Noel would have been singing Force of Nature if he had something better? Do you think he would have put A Quick Peep on there if had a huge classic on stand by? Or was it simply quality control was slipping and he really believed those were efforts of merit. He cared enough about DBTT to scrap it once and send everyone away to write some more songs and then to persist with it, recording it in a load of places before taking it to America. Every songwriter has there ups and downs even Weller on his own has put out some indifferent albums, Noel is having a decent phase right now and good on him. Its a tribute to Noel's talent that he has usually been able to write clutch of really good songs each album cycle, that doesn't happen for many who ahve been at it as long as him. Even after all the work Noel and company put into DBTT the two best songs on the album didn’t involve Sardy or the LA trip. They were thrown on towards the end when the record executives feared the album had no hit singles. And right they were. Noel almost left off two #1 singles. Well most of the album didn't involve Sardy in the sense they took a lot of the finished work to him. I know Noel wasn't fond of Lyla and it had been almost forgotton that perhaps goes back to my point about quality control and recognising the merit of the songs. Don't really remember execs saying anything about TIOBI. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:52:40 GMT -5
I know Noel wasn't fond of Lyla and it had been almost forgotton. Criminal Tom, it’s my #3 Oasis tune. |
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Post by matt on Nov 9, 2018 19:27:18 GMT -5
Evidence that he’d all but given up and was phoning it in from this point onwards. I can only think financial reasons was the motivation. I bet he was pissing himself when albums like Don’t Believe The Truth - which is in no way not much different in quality to anything released after 1997 - were winning awards. Must have thought ‘this shit pays for itself’. Now that success is not guaranteed under his own name, we’re actually seeing albums with more thought and effort put into them. That's such a cop out and flies in the face of the evidence available. Songwriters just don't shit out an endless stream of great songs, it just doesn't happen whether you're Lennon or Dylan or Coldplay and it isn't because they aren't trying and are just 'phoning it in'. You could make small case for that in regard to SOTSOG, I believe Noel said because of the band changes it was an album he felt he needed to put out even though he had been having trouble writing songs and was lacking in inspiration at the time. But he spoke warmly of Heathen Chemistry, a record he seemed to enjoy making but the truth was he simply wasn't producing great tunes in the same numbers he had been previously. Do you really think Noel would have been singing Force of Nature if he had something better? Do you think he would have put A Quick Peep on there if had a huge classic on stand by? Or was it simply quality control was slipping and he really believed those were efforts of merit. He cared enough about DBTT to scrap it once and send everyone away to write some more songs and then to persist with it, recording it in a load of places before taking it to America. Every songwriter has there ups and downs even Weller on his own has put out some indifferent albums, Noel is having a decent phase right now and good on him. Its a tribute to Noel's talent that he has usually been able to write clutch of really good songs each album cycle, that doesn't happen for many who ahve been at it as long as him. I honestly think it’s more a case of he didn’t have to release those albums when he did. Parking the whole idea of lack of willingness to experiment aside, I believe that if he took his time he’d still have had plenty of songs to fill an album. At the very least, as an Oasis fan, that’s what I always wanted (I can easily accept Liam contributing). I can’t accept the filler crap that Gem and Andy wrote though. Being brutally honest, if you told Oasis fans after Knebworth that some Oasis songs would be written by the frontman of the risible glam rock band Heavy Stereo, your heart would sink. That’s not me having a go at Gem, it’s just the idea of falling dramatically from such a high high standard. It’s the idea of having something so so precious and wanting to protect it as much as possible, and Noel allowed it to be desecrated. |
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Post by matt on Nov 9, 2018 19:30:01 GMT -5
I know Noel wasn't fond of Lyla and it had been almost forgotton. Criminal Tom, it’s my #3 Oasis tune. I can see why Noel disliked it - I can’t bear listening to his demo. The saving grace of that tune for me is Liam’s vocal, if ever there was evidence of what it is to be a great singer, that is it. 99% of the time the tune is by far the most important factor but this is the exception in making a pretty poor song actually good. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 19:36:05 GMT -5
Criminal Tom, it’s my #3 Oasis tune. I can see why Noel disliked it - I can’t bear listening to his demo. The saving grace of that tune for me is Liam’s vocal, if ever there was evidence of what it is to be a great singer, that is it. 99% of the time the tune is by far the most important factor but this is the exception in making a pretty poor song actually good. Yeah you’re probably right, I’ve never really given it a post-mortem. Also I do think girls can sometimes have a different take on things, this one just gets me ☺️. Definitely in my top 3, sometimes joint second! |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 9, 2018 19:59:49 GMT -5
Even after all the work Noel and company put into DBTT the two best songs on the album didn’t involve Sardy or the LA trip. They were thrown on towards the end when the record executives feared the album had no hit singles. And right they were. Noel almost left off two #1 singles. Well most of the album didn't involve Sardy in the sense they took a lot of the finished work to him. I know Noel wasn't fond of Lyla and it had been almost forgotton that perhaps goes back to my point about quality control and recognising the merit of the songs. Don't really remember execs saying anything about TIOBI. Its not that they said anything bad about Lyla or TIOBI. They just thought the album needed more and Noel brought those two outside songs in. Liam singing Lyla was a no brainer. Glad Noel did that. |
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Post by matt on Nov 9, 2018 20:10:52 GMT -5
I can see why Noel disliked it - I can’t bear listening to his demo. The saving grace of that tune for me is Liam’s vocal, if ever there was evidence of what it is to be a great singer, that is it. 99% of the time the tune is by far the most important factor but this is the exception in making a pretty poor song actually good. Yeah you’re probably right, I’ve never really given it a post-mortem. Also I do think girls can sometimes have a different take on things, this one just gets me ☺️. Definitely in my top 3, sometimes joint second! I’m sure there’s plenty of folk who like Noel’s demo, its just that personally I’m not a fan of the tune without Liam! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:26:32 GMT -5
Yeah you’re probably right, I’ve never really given it a post-mortem. Also I do think girls can sometimes have a different take on things, this one just gets me ☺️. Definitely in my top 3, sometimes joint second! I’m sure there’s plenty of folk who like Noel’s demo, its just that personally I’m not a fan of the tune without Liam! Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t love it as much if it wasn’t a Liam vocal. |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5