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Post by CFC2013 on Nov 16, 2017 13:51:47 GMT -5
Corbyn vs May
Who's the bigger wanker?
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Post by johnnyb on Nov 16, 2017 13:52:34 GMT -5
It’s fine, i’ve read it all before and can assure you that Marxism / Socialism / Communism has NEVER worked where it has been implemented, and before you say “yes but that’s not REAL Marxism” i’ve read all that before too. Capitalism is not perfect by any means, but it is been proven time and time again to be the best economic model we have so far, i would like to see more regulations on the big corporations tax avoidance, alot of people get Corporatism and Capitalism mixed up. You don’t make the poor richer by making the rich poorer, which would include taking private property off them, especially medium sized independant business owners like myself, who have taken and inherited a constant risk whilst all the while creating jobs and treating staff with the utmost respect, would you punish me? The problem with the socialist ideals is the idea of taking incentive away from people, this ultimately leads to idleness thus making products and services suffer... Anyway i’m rambling, as others have said - Noel has nothing out if the ordinary in this interview...
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 13:52:42 GMT -5
Corbyn vs May Who's the bigger wanker? That's like asking if you would rather chew shit or snort piss.
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Post by CFC2013 on Nov 16, 2017 13:52:58 GMT -5
Libertarian Socialist? Anarchism and Socialism are somewhat different ideologies, but Libertarian Socialism sort of tries to bridge the two. That's the one Yeah, philosophically I consider myself a Libertarian Socialist, but my actual political stances lean towards Democratic Socialism more.
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Post by CFC2013 on Nov 16, 2017 13:53:33 GMT -5
Corbyn vs May Who's the bigger wanker? That's like asking if you would rather chew shit or snort piss. Who's your ideal politician?
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 13:54:02 GMT -5
That's like asking if you would rather chew shit or snort piss. Who's your ideal politician? That is an oxymoron. There cannot be an ideal politician.
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Post by CFC2013 on Nov 16, 2017 13:54:32 GMT -5
It’s fine, i’ve read it all before and can assure you that Marxism / Socialism / Communism has NEVER worked where it has been implemented, and before you say “yes but that’s not REAL Marxism” i’ve read all that before too. Capitalism is not perfect by any means, but it is been proven time and time again to be the best economic model we have so far, i would like to see more regulations on the big corporations tax avoidance, alot of people get Corporatism and Capitalism mixed up. You don’t make the poor richer by making the rich poorer, which would include taking private property off them, especially medium sized independant business owners like myself, who have taken and inherited a constant risk whilst all the while creating jobs and treating staff with the utmost respect, would you punish me? The problem with the socialist ideals is the idea of taking incentive away from people, this ultimately leads to idleness thus making products and services suffer... Anyway i’m rambling, as others have said - Noel has nothing out if the ordinary in this interview... Tell that to Appalachia or inner-city Manchester or something.
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 13:55:25 GMT -5
Yeah, thank God you matured enough to be part of the electorate. That's my opinion. What's the problem? Explain your opinion on private property please. I'm equally intrigued and disturbed by it. You're really gonna say young people can't vote because they haven't matured enough, and then describe the people you disagree with as "little wankers"? I mean, I don't recall Bakunin ever calling Marx a "little wanker" in their discussions. Basically, I think that property (NOT possessions such as beds or shoes or whatever) should be under democratic social control. If you aren't aware of what property means in a socialist context, it's land or infrastructure (the means of production) which capitalists privately own and hire labour in order to extract private profit from. I think this is wrong. I think these means of production should be owned socially. Check this out:
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 13:57:01 GMT -5
It’s fine, i’ve read it all before and can assure you that Marxism / Socialism / Communism has NEVER worked where it has been implemented, and before you say “yes but that’s not REAL Marxism” i’ve read all that before too. Capitalism is not perfect by any means, but it is been proven time and time again to be the best economic model we have so far, i would like to see more regulations on the big corporations tax avoidance, alot of people get Corporatism and Capitalism mixed up. You don’t make the poor richer by making the rich poorer, which would include taking private property off them, especially medium sized independant business owners like myself, who have taken and inherited a constant risk whilst all the while creating jobs and treating staff with the utmost respect, would you punish me? The problem with the socialist ideals is the idea of taking incentive away from people, this ultimately leads to idleness thus making products and services suffer... Anyway i’m rambling, as others have said - Noel has nothing out if the ordinary in this interview... Tell that to Appalachia or inner-city Manchester or something. I think a lot can be said of an implemented Socialist/Communist government in that the Latvian people were devastated when the Soviets re-took Riga from the Nazis.
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 13:59:13 GMT -5
That's my opinion. What's the problem? Explain your opinion on private property please. I'm equally intrigued and disturbed by it. You're really gonna say young people can't vote because they haven't matured enough, and then describe the people you disagree with as "little wankers"? I mean, I don't recall Bakunin ever calling Marx a "little wanker" in their discussions. Basically, I think that property (NOT possessions such as beds or shoes or whatever) should be under democratic social control. If you aren't aware of what property means in a socialist context, it's land or infrastructure (the means of production) which capitalists privately own and hire labour in order to extract private profit from. I think this is wrong. I think these means of production should be owned socially. Check this out: Well, as this is an Oasis forum, I'm not going to get into detailed and serious political debate. However, in your ideal world, homes for example. Are they socially owned?
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 13:59:23 GMT -5
It’s fine, i’ve read it all before and can assure you that Marxism / Socialism / Communism has NEVER worked where it has been implemented, and before you say “yes but that’s not REAL Marxism” i’ve read all that before too. Capitalism is not perfect by any means, but it is been proven time and time again to be the best economic model we have so far, i would like to see more regulations on the big corporations tax avoidance, alot of people get Corporatism and Capitalism mixed up. You don’t make the poor richer by making the rich poorer, which would include taking private property off them, especially medium sized independant business owners like myself, who have taken and inherited a constant risk whilst all the while creating jobs and treating staff with the utmost respect, would you punish me? The problem with the socialist ideals is the idea of taking incentive away from people, this ultimately leads to idleness thus making products and services suffer... Anyway i’m rambling, as others have said - Noel has nothing out if the ordinary in this interview... This is the same argument I had in that other thread, and I think I pretty much covered it there. Basically, anarchism has worked internally almost every time it's been implemented - and, yes, you can definitely say that places like the USSR etc...were not Marxism. You can say it's Marxist-Leninism if you want, but I'd be just as opposed to that ideology as you are. Ignoring the vast and important differences between traditional Marxism and Leninism is basically just a propaganda point. I am completely and totally opposed to the values and ideology upon which these so-called "communist" states were built. Like Chomsky said - "If Lenin is the left, then I don't want to be."
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 14:01:24 GMT -5
You're really gonna say young people can't vote because they haven't matured enough, and then describe the people you disagree with as "little wankers"? I mean, I don't recall Bakunin ever calling Marx a "little wanker" in their discussions. Basically, I think that property (NOT possessions such as beds or shoes or whatever) should be under democratic social control. If you aren't aware of what property means in a socialist context, it's land or infrastructure (the means of production) which capitalists privately own and hire labour in order to extract private profit from. I think this is wrong. I think these means of production should be owned socially. Check this out: Well, as this is an Oasis forum, I'm not going to get into detailed and serious political debate. However, in your ideal world, homes for example. Are they socially owned? Your house would be your own, of course.
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 14:02:53 GMT -5
Well, as this is an Oasis forum, I'm not going to get into detailed and serious political debate. However, in your ideal world, homes for example. Are they socially owned? Your house would be your own, of course. What if I wanted to build a house for my family, maybe with a garden for my dog? What happens then?
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 14:04:04 GMT -5
Your house would be your own, of course. What if I wanted to build a house for my family, maybe with a garden for my dog? What happens then? Then...have fun?
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Post by mimmihopps on Nov 16, 2017 14:05:19 GMT -5
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 14:05:34 GMT -5
What if I wanted to build a house for my family, maybe with a garden for my dog? What happens then? Then...have fun? ? Would I be able to?
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 14:06:11 GMT -5
So we can't talk about politics, but can talk about Noel talking about politics?
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Post by mimmihopps on Nov 16, 2017 14:07:28 GMT -5
So we can't talk about politics, but can talk about Noel talking about politics? Calm down. That's not what I'm talking. I haven't followed this thread and didn't read all posts in this thread yet. It's just my suggestion.
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 14:08:03 GMT -5
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 14:08:27 GMT -5
Where would the land to build it on come from?
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 16, 2017 14:10:18 GMT -5
Where would the land to build it on come from? Where would the land...come from? I really don't understand that question. If there was no land which could be built upon, you wouldn't be building a house...right? Can I ask where this is going? You can always see B&Q for hammer recommendations or something...
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 16, 2017 14:12:41 GMT -5
The "scaremongering" was inaccurate largely because it's unlike that Brexit will actually be possible. May's financial team doesn't even know the difference between payments and contracts, it seems. If you've been following the economics of what they've been trying to do, you'll know that there's a good chance Noel would actually be more professional. I really hope this leads to the end of the Tories. If the alternative is that little wanker Corbyn and his mythical fairer Britain, then I don't want to know. He's the biggest pretender on the planet. He's our best chance for something different right now.
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Post by johnnyb on Nov 16, 2017 14:14:48 GMT -5
Corbyn is on record (several times) praising the economics of Venezuela, buggest oil reserves in the world yet people are killing their pets for food and queuing up for toilet roll for days...
Chile, same area on the map, same peope, minimal oil reserves but a success story of an ecomony in comparison to the former...
North Korea - death, starvation, and misery for most of its inhabitants, Communist regime...
South Korean - Capitalist, same area on the map, same people, yet they have Samsung, Hyundai, LG, a buoyant economy and astromonical living standards compared with NK...
I could go on, i do sympathise with the Socialist view of the greed of Corporations and we need to work together to try and solve that issue..
A recent and very simple analogy of how some of the fundamentals of Socialism are flawed is that my girlfriends’ sister has just got a new job in a restaurant as a waitress, in this restaurant they share out the tips, yet the previous restaurant she worked in they didn’t and she is a hard worker by nature but worked even harder to earn tips for herself....
Now she is in a position where there are a couple of other staff members who are lazy, doing the bare minimum, and basically just tossing it off all their shift, yet they come out with the same amount of tips than the girl working her arse off all night, this can and will only lead to the hard workers themselves becoming as lazy thus making the service suffer, all due to the nature of incentivism being taken away...
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Post by rickypaglais on Nov 16, 2017 14:15:28 GMT -5
Where would the land to build it on come from? Where would the land...come from? I really don't understand that question. If there was no land which could be built upon, you wouldn't be building a house...right? Can I ask where this is going? You can always see B&Q for hammer recommendations or something... As in, if it's socially owned, how would I get permission to build on a bit of land that takes my fancy?
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 16, 2017 14:17:34 GMT -5
Corbyn is on record (several times) praising the economics of Venezuela, buggest oil reserves in the world yet people are killing their pets for food and queuing up for toilet roll for days... Chile, same area on the map, same peope, minimal oil reserves but a success story of an ecomony in comparison to the former... North Korea - death, starvation, and misery for most of its inhabitants, Communist regime... South Korean - Capitalist, same area on the map, same people, yet they have Samsung, Hyundai, LG, a buoyant economy and astromonical living standards compared with NK... I could go on, i do sympathise with the Socialist view of the greed of Corporations and we need to work together to try and solve that issue.. A recent and very simple analogy of how some of the fundamentals of Socialism are flawed is that my girlfriends’ sister has just got a new job in a restaurant as a waitress, in this restaurant they share out the tips, yet the previous restaurant she worked in they didn’t and she is a hard worker by nature but worked even harder to earn tips for herself.... Now she is in a position where there are a couple of other staff members who are lazy, doing the bare minimum, and basically just tossing it off all their shift, yet they come out with the same amount of tips than the girl working her arse off all night, this can and will only lead to the hard workers themselves becoming as lazy thus making the service suffer, all due to the nature of incentivism being taken away... I think he appreciates that the government there put money in to public services not necessarily the method or outcome. I can't see how your analogy applies to a Corbyn led government.
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