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Post by supersonic1983 on Dec 10, 2006 3:37:08 GMT -5
There's far too much Noel bashing going on in this thread.
Alan White was a great drummer, granted, but in Noel we're talking about the greatest songwriter of the last 20 years. He fucking made Oasis. I don't think his decisions are ours to critique.
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Post by ToneBender on Dec 10, 2006 9:05:36 GMT -5
I think his decisions are entirely ours to critique. He's undoubtedly the most hypocritical, non-commital member of the band. Who do you think is most responsibile for the lack of releases in the past 9 years? Three albums in 9 years. I'm going to put that on Noel. Who chooses the same setlist night in and night out? Noel. Who's the decision maker time and again on mixes, producers, etc? Noel. If he's going to prop himself up there to be the one that makes the decisions he's the one who should get critiscized for decisions fans don't agree with.
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Post by listenup07 on Dec 10, 2006 10:23:22 GMT -5
I think his decisions are entirely ours to critique. He's undoubtedly the most hypocritical, non-commital member of the band. Who do you think is most responsibile for the lack of releases in the past 9 years? Three albums in 9 years. I'm going to put that on Noel. Who chooses the same setlist night in and night out? Noel. Who's the decision maker time and again on mixes, producers, etc? Noel. If he's going to prop himself up there to be the one that makes the decisions he's the one who should get critiscized for decisions fans don't agree with.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2006 22:38:55 GMT -5
I think his decisions are entirely ours to critique. He's undoubtedly the most hypocritical, non-commital member of the band. Who do you think is most responsibile for the lack of releases in the past 9 years? Three albums in 9 years. I'm going to put that on Noel. Who chooses the same setlist night in and night out? Noel. Who's the decision maker time and again on mixes, producers, etc? Noel. If he's going to prop himself up there to be the one that makes the decisions he's the one who should get critiscized for decisions fans don't agree with. So true man, though I'm sure Liam has some, albiet very small, imput in the setlist. |
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Post by bringitdown on Dec 10, 2006 23:42:14 GMT -5
People keep bringing up the point that Alan was a pro and only missed one meeting while Liam and Noel bailed on tours and gigs, but the thing you have to look at is that it's fucking Noel and Liam they miss a gig you aren't going to kick them out of the band, it's just not going to happen. I don't believe that he was let go because he missed a meeting Noel just used that to bring it to a conclusion obviously there was something in the lads mind before hand that foreshadowed this and the meeting was just the final call.
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Post by ToneBender on Dec 11, 2006 8:24:53 GMT -5
Well the point wasn't that you should kick out Liam or Noel for missing a gig. Obviously that's not going to happen. That said, if there's no consequence for them, it certainly shouldn't be a consequence for Alan if he misses a gig or a meeting. I tend to agree with you though, it had to be something more. At least, I hope it was. For a few years, Noel kept saying he had no idea why Guigsy and Bonehead quit, and then the story of him dumping the wine on Bonhead at 4 AM as a bit of payback for Stent came out. Maybe we'll get the true story in a couple of years. Either way, I really do think Alan was the last one that should've been kicked out.
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Post by LDD- Angelic Child on Dec 11, 2006 12:27:02 GMT -5
Right, Liam and Noel could never go... Gem and Andy were new members (and probably did turn up to the meeting)...
who else could go? other than Zeb
I'd also disagree with Gem being a toff... Andy yeah but Gem's a Northerner like.
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Post by His Royal Majesty Revolver on Dec 12, 2006 10:58:59 GMT -5
I'm not sure how it happened.... but whatever did is certainly quite unfortunate because Alan was a fucking amazing drummer
No matter what anyone says, I don't think Zak's got it
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Post by vespa on Dec 13, 2006 8:26:01 GMT -5
there was more to this quite obviously but i also think that it was aboout the sounds alan was giving them aswell.live zak is immense and alan couldnt pull some of the stuff imafraid and on the record theres no way alan wouldve fitted the albums style in a million years ,his style was based around fills and different beats all the time and live he often changed the beats to the original sound on record.zak plays the albums versions mostly and this is what the band want.but he also keeps a steady rythm on record and all in all hes the best drummer in england .i just think they went for a fresh start and it worked
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Post by Moorish on Dec 13, 2006 8:46:24 GMT -5
there was more to this quite obviously but i also think that it was aboout the sounds alan was giving them aswell.live zak is immense and alan couldnt pull some of the stuff imafraid and on the record theres no way alan wouldve fitted the albums style in a million years ,his style was based around fills and different beats all the time and live he often changed the beats to the original sound on record.zak plays the albums versions mostly and this is what the band want.but he also keeps a steady rythm on record and all in all hes the best drummer in england .i just think they went for a fresh start and it worked That is frankly bollocks. Alan could've played whatever the fuck they wanted him to. If he couldn't Noel wouldn't have had him in the group for a decade. You think the drums are amazingly more complicated on DBTT than on any of the other albums? Arsecandles they are. |
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Post by sword on Dec 13, 2006 13:50:36 GMT -5
I've never noticed it at the live shows i attend, but it is noticeable on the live bootlegs that Zak's drumming is harder, sharper and more involved in the songs than before. Obvious one is 'Bring It On Down'. Can't see any difference in the album though. Same old Oasis really. Seeing as Noel always calls the shots with everything, then obviously something serious happened. Especially when you look at Alans track record. He was probably the most reliable member of the band. I would love to know what went down.  |
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Post by noelhimself on Dec 14, 2006 16:34:21 GMT -5
I actually saw Alan's brother a while ago at my college just before DBTT was released (steve i think his name is, drums for Weller at the mo) and the impression i got from him was that oasis were very harsh to him, they certainly left of bad terms, he said that alan hadnt been back on the drums since.
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Post by ToneBender on Dec 14, 2006 18:51:45 GMT -5
That's the impression that he gave on his website too. I don't think this was as nice of a breakoff as Liam and Noel would indicate. The Oasis "partnership" was just Noel, Liam and Alan at that point
in terms of royalties and other money so I could imagine some bad business stuff went down too, not just the musical aspect.
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Post by vespa on Dec 23, 2006 12:31:49 GMT -5
alan is technically a fantastic drummer but zack is what they needed on that album and tour.alan was based around fills zak is just a steady but heavier beat and suits the band live a lot better.yeh alan couldve drummed on dbtt but it wouldv sounded totally different .its hard to explain but bein a drummer myself i can tell ya that this was partially the point
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Post by Elan Morin Tedronai on Dec 28, 2007 11:44:28 GMT -5
Alan was based around fills, because the band wanted him to be based around fills. I totally agree with one post that Alan was the last guy the band should have kicked out. And I really see the point that Alan was probably tired of minimizing his drumming contribution to the band's sound that with all due respect no one can deny. I don't know the truth behind it. His brother refused to answer me specifically, the last answer I got is that "his departure of the band left him with the feeling that music is filled with bullshit and bullshitters". As amazing songwriters Liam and Noel may be, as arrogant, self-centered and bad-behaved bastards they are.
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Post by novascotialad on Dec 28, 2007 16:07:17 GMT -5
What a geek.
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Post by iiclisoy on Dec 29, 2007 2:42:57 GMT -5
The impression I got was he missed the album sessions meeting to determine what they were doing producer wise and Noel said "look if he's not into it, out with him". Now, from what I can tell, having read over a few Q&As that Alan did with Freddie Gee's drummer site before he was kicked out he was getting increasingly upset that his drums were going down so low in the mix on top of the prevalence of drum loops (ie, Go Let It Out, Gas Panic, The Hindu Times, Better Man (live)). As I recall he said "well I don't like that my drums get turned down with each successive mix we do of an album, but one musn't grumble in this band". The irony of it is that Alan supposedly misses a meeting and he's out of the band. Liam and Noel skip out on tours, specific gigs, and demo sessions (Noel does very little demoing with the rest of the band in the early stages) and Alan is the one that gets booted. So far as I can see it, Alan is the only one that showed up to everything asked of him for about 8 or 9 years. If anyone deserved slack, it was Alan. I love Zak as much as the next guy but it just doesn't feel the same to me without Alan. He was a steady force and a calming personality. If anyone in the band deserved the success they achieved with the last tour/album, it was him. Put yourself in his shoes "Well, they want me to show up to a meeting about what producer we're using? Does it matter? Noel sits in on the mix and turns me down anyway. I'll turn up, find out I'm playing along to some drum loop, then have my drums turned down, and be the one that does his job with the least recognition. Or I could work out my relationship with my girlfriend right now". He was treated terribly and I absolutely refuse to believe that the posting that said "The band has asked Alan to leave..." represented the band. This was clearly a Noel decision and not a very respectfully done one at that. i think thats bullshit. while i absolutely love whitey and wish he was still with the band, he was only the drummer, no matter how good, and i think he was content in that role up till the point when he became disenchanted with being in oasis. obviously being replaced by drum loops in some songs would hurt his ego, but it was noel's perogative to use whatever noises/instruments he wanted to attain to get the songs the way he wanted. oasis is obviously a very close-knit band and if whitey started pulling away from the band and deciding that he had more important things to do, he already knew that he wasnt going or want to be in the band much longer, whether he was sacked or not. if indeed he was asked to leave because he missed a meeting, which i doubt, it was only because he had shown signs of disinterest in the band before. could you imagine Gem or andy or even guigs getting sacked because he missed a meeting? whitey was obviously good mates with the rest of the band. noel even said in the zane lowe interview that he still misses him cause hes a good lad. i dont think that noel is that machiavellian that he would fire his friend and long time bandmate over a trivial thing like a missed meeting or even numerous missed meetings if he was having personal problems. hes not axl rose. noel and liam are allowed to fuck around cause theyre the heart and soul of the band, along with the brains. i think that whitey didnt want to quit the band even though he knew being in oasis wasnt right for him anymore. noel recognized his and as the leader of the band, he talked to him and alan and oasis decided to part ways. i have to believe that alan left the band willingly and noel 'sacked him' if you must, respectfully. as far as that whole whitey liam thing, i think noel just said that to come up with a simple and plausible answer to a difficult question. |
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Post by iiclisoy on Dec 29, 2007 2:50:47 GMT -5
I think his decisions are entirely ours to critique. He's undoubtedly the most hypocritical, non-commital member of the band. Who do you think is most responsibile for the lack of releases in the past 9 years? Three albums in 9 years. I'm going to put that on Noel. Who chooses the same setlist night in and night out? Noel. Who's the decision maker time and again on mixes, producers, etc? Noel. If he's going to prop himself up there to be the one that makes the decisions he's the one who should get critiscized for decisions fans don't agree with. NOEL IS OASIS. whatever he does is the status quo for the band. whatever decision noel makes, whether it seems fair or not is what shapes oasis. obviously oasis wouldnt be the same band without liam singing or alan's drumming but for the fist decade, noel wrote all the songs and he is still the visonary behind oasis' direction. i think it is remarkable that two different musicians from two different bands with different styles were able to come into oasis and write oasis music. noel has to be given a lot of credit for this |
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Post by Elan Morin Tedronai on Dec 29, 2007 5:14:08 GMT -5
No one is denying the credit that Noel deserves. We have every right to critisize and scrutinize him as much as we want. I think that both of you settins0n and iiclisoy are right to some extent. However, I fear that we may never know the truth behind White's departure. What I do think is that the decision making process in recording wasn't suitable for White so he decided to quit during the band's sixth album sessions. I don't know who is right or wrong in this. I suspect that Oasis are pretty much to blame for his departure which paid out actually. It took quite a lot of effort in order to integrate Zak Starkey in the band. I doubt it that Alan would left willingly a band where he spent 9 years and passed through everything and was said to be Liam's best friend. I do suspect that he was feeling disenchanted and unhappy. In fact I really do think that the last two albums really suffer, because of that and that on the tracks where he drums and performs full-force, he shines. I also think that we should ask Liam about how he feels about the departure of Whitey, who was said to be his "official" drinking partner.
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Post by ToneBender on Dec 29, 2007 10:21:48 GMT -5
i have to believe that alan left the band willingly and noel 'sacked him' if you must, respectfully. We've had every indication from the White camp (via Steve) that it was not done respectfully and it was handled very poorly. Explain to me why Steve White would be so bitter about the way Noel treated Alan if it was done respectfully? If you've watched the videos from the BLT you'd see quite a bit of friendliness between Noel and Steve. If Alan hasn't played drums since and Steve has nothing but negative things to say, I'm not exactly inclined to believe that this was handled "respectfully". Stop sipping the Kool-Aid, buddy. There is more to the band and their success than Noel writing about stars shining every 3rd chorus... |
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Post by lacoste on Dec 29, 2007 10:51:37 GMT -5
i have to believe that alan left the band willingly and noel 'sacked him' if you must, respectfully. We've had every indication from the White camp (via Steve) that it was not done respectfully and it was handled very poorly. Explain to me why Steve White would be so bitter about the way Noel treated Alan if it was done respectfully? If you've watched the videos from the BLT you'd see quite a bit of friendliness between Noel and Steve. If Alan hasn't played drums since and Steve has nothing but negative things to say, I'm not exactly inclined to believe that this was handled "respectfully". Stop sipping the Kool-Aid, buddy. There is more to the band and their success than Noel writing about stars shining every 3rd chorus... I agree that the dismissal of Alan was not pleasant and people on either side think less of the other. You seem to putting on all the blame on Noel and the other members of Oasis (because of what Steve White feels about HIS brother). There are two sides to every story, and maybe, just maybe Alan White was pulling his weight both professionally and personally. Steve White's opinion is far from gospel on this matter. Very far. |
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Post by Elan Morin Tedronai on Dec 29, 2007 11:34:15 GMT -5
Of course we are not saying this lacoste. The point is that we don't know the truth. We don't know the whole truth as much as I would like to hear it from Alan White himself. I think that kicking off White (he didn't leave with singing a song, alright?) was big mistake and that his drumming style and presence are more suitable for Oasis than what Ringo's son is bringing on. Alan is talented, talented drummer and without him the band will never have some of the flair, they used to have, with him playing.
For everybody saying that drumming on DBTT is something special - you guys have no fucking idea of drumming - it is amazingly unspecial and straightforward drumming. This is good and bad in the same time.
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Post by lacoste on Dec 29, 2007 12:40:41 GMT -5
Of course we are not saying this lacoste. The point is that we don't know the truth. We don't know the whole truth as much as I would like to hear it from Alan White himself. I think that kicking off White (he didn't leave with singing a song, alright?) was big mistake and that his drumming style and presence are more suitable for Oasis than what Ringo's son is bringing on. . In that I disagree. If you are talking about Zak Starkey i.e. one of the best drummers in the world then Oasis made a step-up in the drumming stakes. Alan is great. But Zak is brilliant. It is rather condescending to call him merely Ringo's son! |
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Post by iiclisoy on Dec 29, 2007 18:50:23 GMT -5
i have to believe that alan left the band willingly and noel 'sacked him' if you must, respectfully. We've had every indication from the White camp (via Steve) that it was not done respectfully and it was handled very poorly. Explain to me why Steve White would be so bitter about the way Noel treated Alan if it was done respectfully? If you've watched the videos from the BLT you'd see quite a bit of friendliness between Noel and Steve. If Alan hasn't played drums since and Steve has nothing but negative things to say, I'm not exactly inclined to believe that this was handled "respectfully". Stop sipping the Kool-Aid, buddy. There is more to the band and their success than Noel writing about stars shining every 3rd chorus... first of all, steve white and alan white are two seperate people and i dont think that we can make the assumption from the very vague things that steve said that noel would just sack alan as if they hadnt been in a band for 8 or so years and were good friends. im making the assumption that alan leaving was handled with some degree of grace based on the fact that noel isnt a megalomaniac sociopath. if you start believing all this 'huge ego' bullshit that the press has been feeding us then you dont know this band. and while there is more to the band than noel writing about 'shining' in such classic songs such as 'rock n roll star' 'aquiesce' and 'the importance of being idle', oasis would be nothing without him. i dont understand how you can criticize noel's writing style as an oasis fan. you may not like a song, but you honestly sound like a rolling stone journalist right now. bottom line, whoever sings live forever, its still a classic song, granted its the best i could be with liam singing, but noel is the one who wrote all the songs, chose the creative direction and made oasis what it is. |
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Post by ToneBender on Dec 29, 2007 19:47:04 GMT -5
You don't understand how I criticize Noel's writing style as an Oasis fan? He uses the same imagery for about 25% of the songs he releases. I'm pretty sure that I'm allowed to criticize his writing style. Last I checked art is critiqued on a daily basis. So which is it? You doubt that I'm a real fan or you'd prefer that people lavish nothing but praise at their feet?
Also, I'm pretty sure Steve has a better insight into how the band operates than us being that ya know, Steve has known Noel for about 12 or 13 years, has toured with him and is Alan's brother. What do you think?
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