|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 5, 2008 16:52:14 GMT -5
TheEXPIERENCE, you are right
|
|
|
|
Post by sonicidler on Sept 5, 2008 19:13:28 GMT -5
This can go on and on without any common ground because lets face it, Republicans and Democrats will always disagree on everything. Dems are blinded by the fact that Obama doesnt really have a lot of experience being a leader while Republicans dont really care that Palin has had no foreign policy experience. The problem here is that Palin isnt running for president so her lack of experience cant hurt us as much if Obama actually wins. We all know VP's are just figure heads who dont really do anything. She would be a heart attack away from the Presidency... and with McCain's age that's not so inconceivable. Then what?? And last I checked you voted for the whole ticket, not just the President, so the argument that the VP is just a figurehead is pretty poor. You need to consider both candidates imo. How many presidents in the history of the United States of America have actually died while in office? I do believe only 3-4. The chances of McCain croaking while in office with todays advances in medicine and the very low probability of this statistic, I'd say YOU can rest easy that Palin wont be president anytime soon. I wouldnt mind it though if it happened. Maybe the answer all along was a female president. Although she might get too moody around that time of month!  |
|
|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 5, 2008 20:02:49 GMT -5
I dont get what you Obama people dont get, Palin is more expirenced in leading people, running a government, then Obama is. Why would you bring up Palin not being ready to take over the presidency?
|
|
|
|
Post by shoofee on Sept 5, 2008 22:08:18 GMT -5
She would be a heart attack away from the Presidency... and with McCain's age that's not so inconceivable. Then what?? And last I checked you voted for the whole ticket, not just the President, so the argument that the VP is just a figurehead is pretty poor. You need to consider both candidates imo. How many presidents in the history of the United States of America have actually died while in office? I do believe only 3-4. The chances of McCain croaking while in office with todays advances in medicine and the very low probability of this statistic, I'd say YOU can rest easy that Palin wont be president anytime soon. I wouldnt mind it though if it happened. Maybe the answer all along was a female president. Although she might get too moody around that time of month! How many presidents in the history of the United States of America will enter their 1st term at the age of 72 and have had cancer twice before in their lives? The answer: 0. While Reagan is the oldest president, he entered his first term at the age of 69 and had no health history like that of McCain. Now I wouldnt bet on nor would I desire anything to happen to McCain while in office, but the chances are much higher that something does. There's too many variables (age - when the life expectancy of a white male even with the advances in medicine is 75, cancer recurrences) that give the possibility. His history of a POW is also a concern. Now that is one thing I have the utmost respect for him for and always have, but theres plenty of statistics of POWs having more and more health problems as years go by, and who knows what the stress of the presidency would exacerbate with him. You wouldnt mind if it happened? A pro-life (in all cases), book banning (check out the shit she pulled in Wasilla), right wing conservative Christian as President? Yea, just what this country needs  |
|
|
|
Post by keystone1316 on Sept 5, 2008 22:29:56 GMT -5
I dont get what you Obama people dont get, Palin is more expirenced in leading people, running a government, then Obama is. Why would you bring up Palin not being ready to take over the presidency? because many Obama supporters don't know a god damn thing about the guy The guy hasn't done fucking anything. He was an Illinois State Senator for 8 years, which in the scheme of our government is pretty meaningless. His first day as Senator was January 5th, 2005... and on February 10th, 2007 he announced he was gonna run for president with barely 2 years under his belt as a Senator. Starting in August of 2007, he pretty much has dedicated all of his time to campaining for the presidency, so his only credentials are spending two and a half years as a mediocre Senator who never once voted against his party... and managed to find the time to write a 300 page memoir. Palin on the other hand was mayor of a small city for 8 years and the most beloved governor in the country for the last 20 months. A lot of experience? No, but still more than Obama. Plus she and McCain have both shown that they are willing to disagree with their party on certain things, which is one thing Obama hasnt done once. I'm neither left nor right, but at least McCain has shown a willingness to try to work with both parties. Plus... the guys a fucking American hero with over two decades of political experience. Obama's just a pawn of the Democratic Party who just tells people what they want to hear. Yea he's a great speaker, but so was Hitler. Had Biden been running for President and Obama as VP, my views might be different. But anyone who thinks Obama is really gonna "change" Washington and American politics is deluded. "Change" is such a meaningless, broad term. Yea, change can mean doing things better than the Bush administration, but it could also mean doing things worse than the Bush administration. Fact is, everyone wants the next president to be a better one than Bush. I feel 100% confident that McCain will at least be a better president than Bush. Obama on the other hand? Its too big of a risk... the guy could be better than Bush, but I think there's also a good chance that he would be the most ineffective president in history... |
|
|
|
Post by nyr401994 on Sept 5, 2008 22:35:48 GMT -5
Obama's just a pawn of the Democratic Party who just tells people what they want to hear. Yea he's a great speaker, but so was Hitler. godwin's law |
|
|
|
Post by keystone1316 on Sept 5, 2008 22:50:39 GMT -5
Obama's just a pawn of the Democratic Party who just tells people what they want to hear. Yea he's a great speaker, but so was Hitler. godwin's law technically I wasn't comparing Obama with Hitler... It was more a passing reference to the fact that being a good speaker doesn't translate to being a good leader. |
|
|
|
Post by thelostchord on Sept 5, 2008 23:05:56 GMT -5
I was on the Ron Paul bandwagon. But if I had to pick one, it would be Obama.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cast on Sept 5, 2008 23:09:21 GMT -5
My view is really simple...maybe not "politically correct" but I couldn't care less. With gas prices like they are, and with the economy in such horrible shape, the last thing I need is to give more of my paycheck to some deadbeat on welfare so they can continue to live like lazy fucks and not get a job. With the country in the state it's in right now, I don't need a president who's more concerned with jacking up taxes sky high so he can take care of "his" inner-city people, than he is with the total well being of our country. thank you |
|
|
|
Post by sonicidler on Sept 5, 2008 23:15:35 GMT -5
the national journal said the same exact thing about john kerry in 2004. That's true Kerry was the most liberal Senator- until another one overtook him... and his name was Obama. |
|
|
|
Post by shoofee on Sept 6, 2008 0:39:28 GMT -5
If you vote for McCain, you do know Abortions will still be legal. Even though McCain is not for abortion, Hillary supports are coming McCains way, and they know that there are to many Dems who support Abortion that have power so you wont see the day where Abortions are illegal. So really that, thats not a big issue if you ask me One of the impacts the next presidency has is going to be huge. That's the appointment of new Supreme Court justices. The president himself cannot outlaw abortion because its in the constitution (R v W), but the president does appoint justices who CAN. With McCain as president, he's already shown the propensity and willingness to appoint justices to the court that will overturn R v W or is at least threatening to depending on how you look at it. Why do you think the right to life movement is so energized by the Palin selection as VP? Palin is so right wing she would ban all forms of abortion, including in cases of rape and incest. She's also against sex education in schools and only promotes "abstinence only" focus programs. Im not for abortion at all, but Im definitely pro-choice. No legislator should decide what a woman decides to do with her body. The decision should be between her, the father, and whoever else they decide to include. R v W does not promote abortion, it allows the choice to be made so that abortions are not done illegally and ensures that they're regulated. Are you seriously basing your claim of Hillary supporters on the RNC lol? The RNC is a Republican showcase, just as the DNC is a Democratic showcase. The latest polls and focus groups show that more than 80% of people who voted for Hillary are going to vote for Obama. Yes, there are some who cross the aisle, just as there are Republicans crossing over to Obama. The impact will be so little it will have no effect on the election otherwise. |
|
|
|
Post by sonicidler on Sept 6, 2008 1:23:46 GMT -5
That's true Kerry was the most liberal Senator- until another one overtook him... and his name was Obama. I love how the right wing portrays "liberal" as a bad thing. Do you even know the definition? lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl) adj. 1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. con·ser·va·tive (kn-sûrv-tv) adj. 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. 2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit. 3. Moderate; cautious The mere definition of "conservative" that the Republican party portrays is EXACTLY what this country does not need. "Opposing change"? Isn't "change" exactly what this election is about? Only a simpleton things saying someone is for "change" means anything. Obama is not for change in any meaningful way if you look at him for longer than five seconds. Obama was in Chicago politics for years- where I'm from- and changed nothing. He was just another cog in the wheel of the corrupt Chicago political machine. McCain is actually for change in a meaningful sense. Such as changing our insane policy of importing our from hostile nations and drilling for it where we have it in America. What the hell will Obama change? When people say he is the most liberal it does mean something. It means he's the highest tax, biggest spending, abortion on demand zealot in the Senate. Obama opposed absolutely zero restrictions on abortion- even partial birth. And he supported infanticide while in the Illinois Senate. That is off the chart liberal. If liberal has a bad connotation to it, it's because of what the liberals have said and done. Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, Obama is an off the chart Socialist-Marxist extremist. He is as far away from the political center as the equator is from the north pole. |
|
|
|
Post by shoofee on Sept 6, 2008 1:42:33 GMT -5
I love how the right wing portrays "liberal" as a bad thing. Do you even know the definition? lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl) adj. 1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. con·ser·va·tive (kn-sûrv-tv) adj. 1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. 2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit. 3. Moderate; cautious The mere definition of "conservative" that the Republican party portrays is EXACTLY what this country does not need. "Opposing change"? Isn't "change" exactly what this election is about? Only a simpleton things saying someone is for "change" means anything. Obama is not for change in any meaningful way if you look at him for longer than five seconds. Obama was in Chicago politics for years- where I'm from- and changed nothing. He was just another cog in the wheel of the corrupt Chicago political machine. McCain is actually for change in a meaningful sense. Such as changing our insane policy of importing our from hostile nations and drilling for it where we have it in America. What the hell will Obama change? When people say he is the most liberal it does mean something. It means he's the highest tax, biggest spending, abortion on demand zealot in the Senate. Obama opposed absolutely zero restrictions on abortion- even partial birth. And he supported infanticide while in the Illinois Senate. That is off the chart liberal. If liberal has a bad connotation to it, it's because of what the liberals have said and done. Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, Obama is an off the chart Socialist-Marxist extremist. He is as far away from the political center as the equator is from the north pole. Infanticide Oh you mean: You do realize that that the guy who started that rumor (Deal) was forced to resign from the RNC (committee not convention) because of his heavy handed tactics? How brainwashed are you to believe these ultra right wing smear tactics? Obama is liberal. I don't argue that he isnt , but to seriously state this sort of shit when it comes from the furthest to the right of the right, its disgusting and laughable. Only a simpleton goes to people like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter or Michael Savage for information on their stances. Abortion on demand lol. Obama's vote on partial birth abortion, per the Congressional vote log roll: What will a guy (McCain) who voted 95% of the time with the Bush administration change? More importantly, he wont be able to change anything because the Democrats will still be in control of both houses of Congress and almost all polls and pundits agree that is not going to change this election. Its no surprise Bush didnt take out his veto power until after the Democrats took control in 2007, when he had blank checks for 7 years of his presidency with the GOP in control of Congress. Its a logjam right now with Bush able to veto things and Congress not being able to pass anything. So everything is fucked because of those 7 years, but nothing can be fixed or at least attempted to be fixed. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same things over and over when they dont work. At the least Obama has different ideas when McCain wants to continue the Bush doctrine, if not further it. |
|
|
|
Post by oasisfan101 on Sept 6, 2008 1:43:10 GMT -5
I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but I didn't like Bush, even when he was Governor of Texas (btw, he's not from Texas....if you don't believe me, research). The Patriot Act Pi**ed me off! And that was Bushes doing. Many of the Politicians who publicly supported it, now are saying they are against it (why......hmmmm, maybe because it was so popular with the public). McCain tends to lean toward whatever Bush does.
Reality is when you vote for a President, you are not just voting for that person, you are voting for their advisors.....McCain's advisors will be the same as Bush's so if McCain is voted in, we'll be going the same direction we are going in already.
Obama (or the Democrats) are who I'm voting for.
|
|
|
|
Post by oasisfan101 on Sept 6, 2008 1:52:45 GMT -5
ohhhh, and that stimulis check was just a small bribe to us trying to blind us from the fact that the cost of living has grown so much, our cost of living raises and increasing minimum doesn't cut it, not even close.....make us all more poor and having to eat more beans and potatoes and high in fat/sugar foods to live or die young.
|
|
|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 6, 2008 8:20:16 GMT -5
I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but I didn't like Bush, even when he was Governor of Texas (btw, he's not from Texas....if you don't believe me, research). The Patriot Act Pi**ed me off! And that was Bushes doing. Many of the Politicians who publicly supported it, now are saying they are against it (why......hmmmm, maybe because it was so popular with the public). McCain tends to lean toward whatever Bush does. Reality is when you vote for a President, you are not just voting for that person, you are voting for their advisors.....McCain's advisors will be the same as Bush's so if McCain is voted in, we'll be going the same direction we are going in already.Obama (or the Democrats) are who I'm voting for. That is not at all true. McCains advisors are going to be completly diffferent |
|
keeso
Madferrit Fan
Posts: 60
|
Post by keeso on Sept 6, 2008 11:50:00 GMT -5
One of the impacts the next presidency has is going to be huge. That's the appointment of new Supreme Court justices. The president himself cannot outlaw abortion because its in the constitution (R v W), but the president does appoint justices who CAN. Actually all the Supreme Court can do is overturn Roe v. Wade which would then leave the issue up to individual states. That's the way it was before 1973. Some states allowed it, some didn't. The Supreme Court can't outlaw abortion because it does not have the power to make law. Keeso  |
|
|
|
Post by oasisfan101 on Sept 6, 2008 18:27:14 GMT -5
I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but I didn't like Bush, even when he was Governor of Texas (btw, he's not from Texas....if you don't believe me, research). The Patriot Act Pi**ed me off! And that was Bushes doing. Many of the Politicians who publicly supported it, now are saying they are against it (why......hmmmm, maybe because it was so popular with the public). McCain tends to lean toward whatever Bush does. Reality is when you vote for a President, you are not just voting for that person, you are voting for their advisors.....McCain's advisors will be the same as Bush's so if McCain is voted in, we'll be going the same direction we are going in already.Obama (or the Democrats) are who I'm voting for. That is not at all true. McCains advisors are going to be completly diffferent they may have different faces and names, but the nameless have the control and the President better follow orders. the president is as powerful as the Party he represents |
|
|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 6, 2008 19:31:46 GMT -5
Racist Radical Pastors
Refusing to Wear American Flag
Friends with Domestic Bomber Ayres
Disowns his Church
Racist Wife
In 1991 Pledged Allegiance to the Black Value System (bet he placed his hand on his heart for this one)
Choosing not to Place Hand on Heart during National Anthem
Muslim Upbringing
Homosexual Sex Scandal
Friendship with 16 Count Convicted Felon Rezko
Citizenship and Family ties to Kenya
Endorsement from Hamas
Not Enough Political Experience
Votes Present more than Votes
Supports Killing the Unborn
Ranked #1 Tax and Spend Liberal
Campaign Promises that will Bankrupt the USA
Lies and Broken Campaign Promises
Ladies and Gentleman, Barack Obama
|
|
|
|
Post by shoofee on Sept 6, 2008 21:57:48 GMT -5
That he disavowed, yet you also put "Disowns his Church" as a supposed negative. When in the hell did wearing a fucking pin on your lapel become mandatory? They worked together on one project together, an education reform project. Is Obama supposed to know the background of his co-workers? Especially considering that Ayres' connection with Weather Underground was in the 1960s when Obama was still a child (he was born in 1961). His whole connection with Obama was that the mayor of Chicago put them on the same board together. Redundant. First he's slammed for "radical racist pastors", and now hes slammed for disowning them? Um, proof? Do you know what the Black Value System is? This is from a REPUBLICAN named Michael Steele: Again, see the flag pin, see the dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of people not doing this daily at sporting events and other things where the anthem is played, what is the fucking point of using this as a negative? OH NO HiS HAND IS NOT ON HIS HEART!!!! So do you think ALL Muslims want to kill us? You do realize his stepfather was a muslim and he lived in other countries as a youth. There is nothing wrong with being a muslim. Being a radical Muslim (like bin Laden) is wrong. Enough of the fucking racism which just by bringing this up is. Yes, he lived in a muslim country (Indonesia where his stepfather is from) with his parents for 4 years and went to a school ran by muslims, but was a secular public school! Again, SO WHAT? You paint muslims with a broad stroke acting as if they're all evil and all want to kill us. Obama lived in Indonesia for 4 years when he was 6 until he was 10. His mother and stepfather divorced and they moved back to the states. First Ive ever heard this, and regardless I DONT FUCKING CARE. I dont care about Republicans in gay sex scandals and I dont care about democrats in gay sex scandals. Who somebody fucks bears no significance on the way they govern. www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/757340,CST-NWS-watchdog24.article He has never claimed citizenship to Kenya. His mother is an American, his biological father is Kenyan. He never even lived in Kenya. So if bin Laden endorses John McCain, who would not seek out his endorsement nor welcome it, would it count as a negative toward him? Do you honestly believe Obama would seek or welcome Hamas' endorsement? lol. State legislator, 1997–2004 (7 years) U.S. Senator, 2005–present Lets compare that to a historical figure: State senator (8 years) Congressman (2 years) name: ABRAHAM LINCOLN a.k.a. the father of the Republican party, a.k.a. is rolling over in his grave at what the Republican party has become. He has voted present at times, but all legislators do. Do you know the bills he voted present on? 9/10 times theres a reason someone chooses not to vote and considering he, McCain, and Hillary have been on the campaign trail for almost 2 years, none of them have voted much either. already went over this in a post above. Considering that Bush and the Republicans have driven this country into a trillion dollar deficit, calling anyone spend happy is a fucking laugh. Yet he has not won yet, so how is it possible for him to break campaign promises and ensuring his promises will supposedly "bankrupt the US"? So where'd you get this list? Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh? |
|
|
|
Post by sonicidler on Sept 6, 2008 22:15:34 GMT -5
Only a simpleton things saying someone is for "change" means anything. Obama is not for change in any meaningful way if you look at him for longer than five seconds. Obama was in Chicago politics for years- where I'm from- and changed nothing. He was just another cog in the wheel of the corrupt Chicago political machine. McCain is actually for change in a meaningful sense. Such as changing our insane policy of importing our from hostile nations and drilling for it where we have it in America. What the hell will Obama change? When people say he is the most liberal it does mean something. It means he's the highest tax, biggest spending, abortion on demand zealot in the Senate. Obama opposed absolutely zero restrictions on abortion- even partial birth. And he supported infanticide while in the Illinois Senate. That is off the chart liberal. If liberal has a bad connotation to it, it's because of what the liberals have said and done. Thomas Jefferson was a liberal, Obama is an off the chart Socialist-Marxist extremist. He is as far away from the political center as the equator is from the north pole. Infanticide Oh you mean: You do realize that that the guy who started that rumor (Deal) was forced to resign from the RNC (committee not convention) because of his heavy handed tactics? How brainwashed are you to believe these ultra right wing smear tactics? Obama is liberal. I don't argue that he isnt , but to seriously state this sort of shit when it comes from the furthest to the right of the right, its disgusting and laughable. Only a simpleton goes to people like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter or Michael Savage for information on their stances. Abortion on demand lol. Obama's vote on partial birth abortion, per the Congressional vote log roll: What will a guy (McCain) who voted 95% of the time with the Bush administration change? More importantly, he wont be able to change anything because the Democrats will still be in control of both houses of Congress and almost all polls and pundits agree that is not going to change this election. Its no surprise Bush didnt take out his veto power until after the Democrats took control in 2007, when he had blank checks for 7 years of his presidency with the GOP in control of Congress. Its a logjam right now with Bush able to veto things and Congress not being able to pass anything. So everything is fucked because of those 7 years, but nothing can be fixed or at least attempted to be fixed. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same things over and over when they dont work. At the least Obama has different ideas when McCain wants to continue the Bush doctrine, if not further it. \ Obama's partial birth vote was totally insincere. He only voted that way because the general election was in six months. Where did he stand before that? And Obama's infanticide not present vote was to prove that he was the most radical member of the Illinois Senate, which he wore as a badge of honor and now hides from the light. Where do you get your political news? do the names of leftist fabilists, the NY Times, MSNBC, and the Daily Kos ring any bells inside your tinfoil hat. If I follow you definition of insanity then I would apply it to the Dems nominating three increasing liberal presidential candidates, Gore, Kerry, and Obama to bit the dust in the general election. They won with the more moderate posing Clinton, tied but lost with Gore, choked in crunch time with Kerry, and now I think will lose even worse with Obama. The Democrats are captive to their hateful, anti-American left wing, and it is truly the gravestone around their necks. Oasis39 cheers for the shocking facts about Obama. Obama is a guy who needed to be told that he belonged to a racist, Anti-American church before leaving it. If that needed to be pointed out to him then he lacks the judgment to run a hot dog stand in Chicago. |
|
|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 6, 2008 22:27:07 GMT -5
"What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback and let me tell you something, For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I have seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues. It has made me proud."- Michelle Obama
"For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country", Um excuse me Mrs. Obama? The first time your proud of your country is when you see people supporting your husband to be president of the United States? This woman is pathetic, and I question her patriotism to America, just like I question her husbands. Did you know Obama had the American Flag taken off his jet?
|
|
|
|
Post by nyr401994 on Sept 6, 2008 22:33:26 GMT -5
oasis39, as much as i respect you for your service, i gotta say that you're drinking the kool aid. i don't like obama much, but whatever happened to liking and disliking candidates not because of trivialities? it doesn't matter whether or not obama was in a madrassa or if mccain's class ranking at the naval academy was fourth or so from dead last out of 800-900? IT DOESN'T MATTER.
it's about the issues. nothing more, nothing less.
|
|
|
|
Post by shoofee on Sept 6, 2008 22:36:26 GMT -5
"What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback and let me tell you something, For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I have seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues. It has made me proud."- Michelle Obama "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country", Um excuse me Mrs. Obama? The first time your proud of your country is when you see people supporting your husband to be president of the United States? This woman is pathetic, and I question her patriotism to America, just like I question her husbands. Did you know Obama had the American Flag taken off his jet? As for his jet, his campaign put his little campaign symbol on the tail, the flag is still on the fuselage. Regarding Michelle: Have you ever heard the quote "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"? Do you know who said it? There are millions of people in this country who are disillusioned with the last 8 years, including many Republicans. |
|
|
|
Post by Oasis39 on Sept 6, 2008 22:38:35 GMT -5
oasis39, as much as i respect you for your service, i gotta say that you're drinking the kool aid. i don't like obama much, but whatever happened to liking and disliking candidates not because of trivialities? it doesn't matter whether or not obama was in a madrassa or if mccain's class ranking at the naval academy was fourth or so from dead last out of 800-900? IT DOESN'T MATTER. it's about the issues. nothing more, nothing less. Exactly, which is why Im voting for McCain. It seems like to many people are voting AGAINST someone rather than FOR someone |
|
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5