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Post by matt on Dec 8, 2018 19:28:13 GMT -5
Plastic Ono Band and Imagine are great albums but after that there’s nothing essential, although that’s not to say he didnt continue writing great songs - he just stopped writing great albums.
He’s a great songwriter - on a par with McCartney for sure, but I don’t think he’s anywhere near the greatest songwriter ever, in fact I don’t think any of The Beatles can lay claim to that. Individually, you see the likes of Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young and Paul Simon all churning out classic album after classic album purely through their own artistic merit and vision (no help from sidemen or producers essentially) and that’s something The Beatles never individually came close to achieving. But as a group, yes I think they trump all individuals.
A fascinating enigmatic character he was but his greatness is not judged on him alone but how he personally and creatively interacted with the rest of The Beatles, in and out of the music. The dynamics of that relationship, in particular with McCartney, is something more fascinating than appraising any individual talent, particularly concerning The Beatles and how two immense talents held such a behemoth thing together. Lennon/McCartney is the greatest story ever told - even when they were writing individually in The Beatles it was always in competition or with an ear towards what the other was doing. I think that even in their finest solo efforts there was always a lingering poignancy to what once was. And you’ll always hear shades of the others influences in their solo careers, right up until the end.
Even listening to the later home demos from Lennon there is a McCartney feel to its wistful melodies (similar in fact to Dear Friend - written for Lennon). I hope one day comes when we hear a completed version of Now & Then - written by Lennon in the late 1970s but unfinished in areas. Who knows as one of the comments suggest, maybe it has been completed by McCartney and maybe it would be a gift when Paul’s time comes that we might finally hear it. And it would be a fitting epitaph to the Lennon/McCartney story. This is where all the greatness lies.
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Post by John Henry Holliday on Dec 8, 2018 20:14:26 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what John would be up to these days if still alive.....he was a real artist, like getting into other forms of music like reggae, and loving more contemporary music at the time like the B-52's, before his death....just quitting making music in the near height of his popularity was different.
A great loss, I loved his solo music and prefer his Beatlés bongs over Paul and George's, Ringo doesn't count, bless him.
Thanks.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Dec 8, 2018 21:15:17 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what John would be up to these days if still alive.....he was a real artist, like getting into other forms of music like reggae, and loving more contemporary music at the time like the B-52's, before his death....just quitting making music in the near height of his popularity was different. A great loss, I loved his solo music and prefer his Beatlés bongs over Paul and George's, Ringo doesn't count, bless him. Thanks. I think he would have worked again with David Bowie and he would have totally gone gaga for Nirvana. Kindred spirits him and Kurt. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Dec 8, 2018 21:18:38 GMT -5
Plastic Ono Band and Imagine are great albums but after that there’s nothing essential, although that’s not to say he didnt continue writing great songs - he just stopped writing great albums. He’s a great songwriter - on a par with McCartney for sure, but I don’t think he’s anywhere near the greatest songwriter ever, in fact I don’t think any of The Beatles can lay claim to that. Individually, you see the likes of Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young and Paul Simon all churning out classic album after classic album purely through their own artistic merit and vision (no help from sidemen or producers essentially) and that’s something The Beatles never individually came close to achieving. But as a group, yes I think they trump all individuals. A fascinating enigmatic character he was but his greatness is not judged on him alone but how he personally and creatively interacted with the rest of The Beatles, in and out of the music. The dynamics of that relationship, in particular with McCartney, is something more fascinating than appraising any individual talent, particularly concerning The Beatles and how two immense talents held such a behemoth thing together. Lennon/McCartney is the greatest story ever told - even when they were writing individually in The Beatles it was always in competition or with an ear towards what the other was doing. I think that even in their finest solo efforts there was always a lingering poignancy to what once was. And you’ll always hear shades of the others influences in their solo careers, right up until the end. Even listening to the later home demos from Lennon there is a McCartney feel to its wistful melodies. I hope one day comes when we hear a completed version of Now & Then - written by Lennon in the late 1970s but unfinished in areas. Who knows as one of the comments suggest, maybe it has been completed by McCartney and maybe it would be a gift when Paul’s time comes that we might finally hear it. And it would be a fitting epitaph to the Lennon/McCartney story. This is where all the greatness lies. Lennon, like Steve McQueen, had other lives and interests outside their arts. Rising to the very top of the creative and commercial mountain afforded them the opportunities to do other things, other interests. Lennon didn’t always want to be in a huge band. He did at a time but it was passing. He always said he was an artist first, rocker second. McQueen also loves his children, his cars, bikes and planes. He decided to immense himself in that world despite extreme over the top offers to do mega Hollywood pictures. I respect both of them for doing what they wanted on their own terms. |
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Post by John Henry Holliday on Dec 8, 2018 22:59:28 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what John would be up to these days if still alive.....he was a real artist, like getting into other forms of music like reggae, and loving more contemporary music at the time like the B-52's, before his death....just quitting making music in the near height of his popularity was different. A great loss, I loved his solo music and prefer his Beatlés bongs over Paul and George's, Ringo doesn't count, bless him. Thanks. I think he would have worked again with David Bowie and he would have totally gone gaga for Nirvana. Kindred spirits him and Kurt. I kinda had Kurt in mind with my original post - just a real artist, too - I can only imagine what he'd be up to today if still with us, as well.... God bless. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 9:37:31 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what John would be up to these days if still alive.....he was a real artist, like getting into other forms of music like reggae, and loving more contemporary music at the time like the B-52's, before his death....just quitting making music in the near height of his popularity was different. A great loss, I loved his solo music and prefer his Beatlés bongs over Paul and George's, Ringo doesn't count, bless him. Thanks. I think he would have worked again with David Bowie and he would have totally gone gaga for Nirvana. Kindred spirits him and Kurt. And... I think he would have berated Macca for collaborating with Kanye. But who knows. |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Dec 9, 2018 10:03:48 GMT -5
I think he would have worked again with David Bowie and he would have totally gone gaga for Nirvana. Kindred spirits him and Kurt. And... I think he would have berated Macca for collaborating with Kanye. But who knows. I'd like to think that, like Damon Albarn earlier on this year, Lennon would have called out whoever was responsible for putting Macca in the music video even though we never hear his vocals in the song. Cyncial fucking sales pitch. |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Dec 9, 2018 10:06:19 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what John would be up to these days if still alive.....he was a real artist, like getting into other forms of music like reggae, and loving more contemporary music at the time like the B-52's, before his death....just quitting making music in the near height of his popularity was different. A great loss, I loved his solo music and prefer his Beatlés bongs over Paul and George's, Ringo doesn't count, bless him. Thanks. I think he would have worked again with David Bowie and he would have totally gone gaga for Nirvana. Kindred spirits him and Kurt. I'm not the biggest Nirvana fan, but a Lennon-Kurt collaboration would have been sommat else.  |
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 9, 2018 10:30:36 GMT -5
Only One is the best song McCartney has been involved in for at least a decade, particularly the Dorian Ye version with those added vocals. FourFiveSeconds was a bit rubbish, though.
Anyway, it's been nice to see the amount of appreciation for John on twitter over the last couple of days, lots of people digging not just the obvious classics but also some great Beatles deep cuts. I gave "Birthday" a spin at home.
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 9, 2018 10:31:56 GMT -5
I wonder kind of music John would have kept making.
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Dec 9, 2018 11:10:20 GMT -5
I wonder kind of music John would have kept making. I can imagine his records would have sounded pretty awful (at least to 21st century ears) in the 80s, as all his peers' work did--you can go through them all, but most notable, I think, is Bowie, who lost the plot sometime after '83 and became a bouffant-haired, grinning lounge lizard type; the very antithesis of what he'd been in the 70s. I think the tunes would have been good, though. Probably better than McCartney's. I like all the stuff we know he wrote in the final years of his life. And then there's those scratchy home demos like 'India, India' you can find on YouTube that show his natural flair for songwriting. He probably dashed off loads of stuff like that. George said how John liked to finish his songs in one go once he'd started them. Given Lennon's often frank and autobiographical lyrical content later on, it's a real pity he never got to grow old and explore that part of life. We often say of musicians who die young, "I couldn't imagine them ever being old." But the sad thing is I can imagine Lennon as an older man. And I think it would've suited him well. The natural calming process of ageing would have done his turbulent mind a lot of good, I think, and helped refocus him. |
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Post by The Escapist on Dec 9, 2018 12:57:12 GMT -5
I wonder kind of music John would have kept making. I can imagine his records would have sounded pretty awful (at least to 21st century ears) in the 80s, as all his peers' work did--you can go through them all, but most notable, I think, is Bowie, who lost the plot sometime after '83 and became a bouffant-haired, grinning lounge lizard type; the very antithesis of what he'd been in the 70s. I think the tunes would have been good, though. Probably better than McCartney's. I like all the stuff we know he wrote in the final years of his life. And then there's those scratchy home demos like 'India, India' you can find on YouTube that show his natural flair for songwriting. He probably dashed off loads of stuff like that. George said how John liked to finish his songs in one go once he'd started them. Given Lennon's often frank and autobiographical lyrical content later on, it's a real pity he never got to grow old and explore that part of life. We often say of musicians who die young, "I couldn't imagine them ever being old." But the sad thing is I can imagine Lennon as an older man. And I think it would've suited him well. The natural calming process of ageing would have done his turbulent mind a lot of good, I think, and helped refocus him. Great post, and I agree. I think he would have a major mid-career wobble but regain form with age and weariness a la Dylan and Bowie. I think he'd probably be quite conservative musically to be honest, he was always nostalgic for classic rock 'n' roll, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 13:05:42 GMT -5
He would have joined Oasis in 1998 and we would be talking about how great their noughties discography is. The Lennon/Gallagher songwriting pair would have destroyed everyone else.
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Post by oasisserbia on Dec 9, 2018 14:48:37 GMT -5
Noel be like  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 15:41:18 GMT -5
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Post by MacaRonic on Dec 10, 2018 13:37:30 GMT -5
‘Plastic Ono Band’ is as good as any of the Beatles’ best albums. There, I said it.
A masterpiece.
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Post by lahaine on Dec 10, 2018 13:51:16 GMT -5
Still think the best Beatles solo album is George Harrison's All Things Must Pass. No one will ever change my mind on that. Fantastic double album.
As far as Lennon is concerned, Plastic Ono Band and Imagine are both fantastic, also love Wall & Bridges. The best solo song he wrote was Mind Games. His solo career was a little hit and miss especially his last work which is the kind of stuff Richard Ashcroft rightly get's criticised for. Sappy and lack of balls.
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Post by lahaine on Dec 10, 2018 14:00:26 GMT -5
And... I think he would have berated Macca for collaborating with Kanye. But who knows. I'd like to think that, like Damon Albarn earlier on this year, Lennon would have called out whoever was responsible for putting Macca in the music video even though we never hear his vocals in the song. Cyncial fucking sales pitch. Macca always had that in him (take a quick buck for a sell out) but he always gets a pass cause in the 60's he was the man. We wouldn't know what Lennon would have done, not a popular thing to say but he was slowly sneaking into sappy love songs and the family man gimmick that he was giving Macca shit on for years. To be fair to Macca, a lot of top talent could be called out for doing some dodgy collabs and videos, the Rolling Stones, Led Zep, Bob Dylan etc have had their moments. I would have loved to see Lennon strike up a writing partnership with Elvis Costello, one of Macca's better solo album's was Flowers in The Dirt. Both Lennon and Costello liked a good moan and had that cynical side to them. I don't know why some would love to see a collab between Lennon and Noel Gallagher, I never really heard the Beatles influence in them more Slade and The Who in my opinion. |
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Post by madferitusa2025 on Dec 10, 2018 21:20:23 GMT -5
I was there, then. Woke up for school, and heard this tune on the radio. Went wow, that's the first time I've ever heard that on the radio. Then I learned the tragic truth. I prefer to celebrate his birthday  Live Forever John: |
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Post by lahaine on Dec 10, 2018 22:26:20 GMT -5
That Lennon Anthology Box Set from a few years back with different takes of his album tracks is a good listen. Some takes on that set are far better then the finish mixes on the released albums. Two that really stuck out for me were
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 19:33:37 GMT -5
I'd like to think that, like Damon Albarn earlier on this year, Lennon would have called out whoever was responsible for putting Macca in the music video even though we never hear his vocals in the song. Cyncial fucking sales pitch. I don't know why some would love to see a collab between Lennon and Noel Gallagher, I never really heard the Beatles influence in them more Slade and The Who in my opinion. There's definitely a big Beatles circa Revolver influence on Oasis. Especially Lennon songs, such as Rain, She Said She Said (add a bit of Lennon songs from Help! though). Maybe not their biggest musical influence, I agree. For me, it's between The Smiths, The La's, The Roses, Neil Young and The Pistols. |
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Post by lahaine on Dec 12, 2018 11:52:06 GMT -5
I don't know why some would love to see a collab between Lennon and Noel Gallagher, I never really heard the Beatles influence in them more Slade and The Who in my opinion. There's definitely a big Beatles circa Revolver influence on Oasis. Especially Lennon songs, such as Rain, She Said She Said (add a bit of Lennon songs from Help! though). Maybe not their biggest musical influence, I agree. For me, it's between The Smiths, The La's, The Roses, Neil Young and The Pistols. The most Beatle like song Noel did for me was Let Forever Be with the Chemical Brothers. I just don't hear any Beatle influence in Oasis, maybe it's just me. I thought Blur and Supergrass had more of a Beatles influence imo, especially Blur listen to Beetlebum and Tender they could have been Lennon songs while in The Beatles. I definitely think Slade, The Who, T-Rex, Neil Young and The La's for sure even The Kinks. I don't see The Roses influence, the Roses were a funk band in places that Oasis never had. The influence might be more down to the look and the way Brown and co carried themselves. Plus The Smiths I don't really hear it. But as I said that's just me. The Beatle's had a light touch to them that Oasis never had. |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Dec 12, 2018 12:59:51 GMT -5
There's definitely a big Beatles circa Revolver influence on Oasis. Especially Lennon songs, such as Rain, She Said She Said (add a bit of Lennon songs from Help! though). Maybe not their biggest musical influence, I agree. For me, it's between The Smiths, The La's, The Roses, Neil Young and The Pistols. The most Beatle like song Noel did for me was Let Forever Be with the Chemical Brothers. I just don't hear any Beatle influence in Oasis, maybe it's just me. I thought Blur and Supergrass had more of a Beatles influence imo, especially Blur listen to Beetlebum and Tender they could have been Lennon songs while in The Beatles. I definitely think Slade, The Who, T-Rex, Neil Young and The La's for sure even The Kinks. I don't see The Roses influence, the Roses were a funk band in places that Oasis never had. The influence might be more down to the look and the way Brown and co carried themselves. Plus The Smiths I don't really hear it. But as I said that's just me. The Beatle's had a light touch to them that Oasis never had. I never did either. I mean they were British and had mop tops but outside that, sonically they don’t share many similarities outside writing tunes people love. Some media did the Beatles comparisons, the bands Beatle comments did them no favor and almost all USA critics latched onto the beatles for the 90s line till this very day. |
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Post by lahaine on Dec 12, 2018 20:57:28 GMT -5
The most Beatle like song Noel did for me was Let Forever Be with the Chemical Brothers. I just don't hear any Beatle influence in Oasis, maybe it's just me. I thought Blur and Supergrass had more of a Beatles influence imo, especially Blur listen to Beetlebum and Tender they could have been Lennon songs while in The Beatles. I definitely think Slade, The Who, T-Rex, Neil Young and The La's for sure even The Kinks. I don't see The Roses influence, the Roses were a funk band in places that Oasis never had. The influence might be more down to the look and the way Brown and co carried themselves. Plus The Smiths I don't really hear it. But as I said that's just me. The Beatle's had a light touch to them that Oasis never had. I never did either. I mean they were British and had mop tops but outside that, sonically they don’t share many similarities outside writing tunes people love. Some media did the Beatles comparisons, the bands Beatle comments did them no favor and almost all USA critics latched onto the beatles for the 90s line till this very day. It's one of the thing's I never got even Noel said they didn't sound like them (took him for years to say it though) but the media went all along with it as the whole Blur battle reminded them of The Stones and The Beatles. As you said Oasis had the mop tops and songs people love, and Liam was trying his best to be a Lennon clone. Musically I always thought they were more like The Who and The Stones then The Beatles. I don't think Oasis helped themselves by playing up to it in the 90's as once Be Here Now came around, critics and some fan's were waiting for a musical reinvention which never came. |
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Post by globe on Dec 13, 2018 4:17:49 GMT -5
I think whoever coined the term Sexbeatles hit the nail on the head for me with Oasis - Beatles melodies on top of loud guitars and attitude.
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