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Post by capo2ndfret on Nov 18, 2023 5:26:08 GMT -5
I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but this is always a talking point that has bothered me about the Oasis canon and something I believe people have got wrong. My belief is that Noel wrote the songs at a key that was comfortable for him and Liam just had to manage. If he couldn't, then Noel would take over. I'm absolutely open to having my mind changed but most people I have spoken to about Oasis online (particularly casual fans) believe that Noel wrote Oasis songs with Liam's voice in mind which is backed up by interviews like this one here with Matt Morgan (cannot remember the time stamp) where he explicitely states this. However, when you look at the recording of specific songs, the song and key selection in live settings, and lack of adjustement for Liam's continual vocal deterioration, I don't believe this to be the case. I will address each of these points in turn. 1) Recording Woes for Specific Songs There are several examples of Liam struggling to sing songs Noel had written for him, even dating back as early as 1995 with Acquiesce.
2) Song and Key Selection in Live SettingsNoel has claimed in interviews in the past that he lowers the key of the songs so that they are more comfortable for Liam to sing. However, the only two examples I can think of are Let's All Make Believe and The Hindu Times. Noel only started bumping the key up on select songs like Whatever, Half the World Away etc. in the 2000s. Otherwise, all of the demos we have available have stayed at the same key even for killer songs for Liam like My Big Mouth and Some Might Say - the former having to be abandoned in the original key after the summer 1996 gigs and the latter, never quite being nailed barring a few select performances in 1995 and 1996. 3) Lack of Adjustment for Liam's Ailing Voice
Force of Nature was meant to be the first single for Heathen Chemistry and yet the plan was scrapped because Noel did a better take than Liam, my guess would be because for Liam's voice at the time, he was just unable to make the sustained high notes in the chorus convincing. Liam's voice was on the slide since the Be Here Now tour and I find it suprising that even with the knowledge that Liam's voice was not as high as it used to be, with Noel acknowledging that Some Might Say had to be pulled from the set in the year 2000 because Liam couldn't get the high notes anymore, he was still writing songs well outwith Liam's comfortable range. Little by Little was another example? Why was the key not dropped to D minor? I thought Noel was supposedly writing songs with Liam's voice in mind? There is a difference between writing a song for someone to sing and writing a song they can actually sing. What do people think? Do people agree or am I way off on this one? |
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Post by Diamond in The Dark on Nov 18, 2023 9:17:42 GMT -5
Whatever it is, the important thing is that Liam sang them. There will never be a wrong song if he is there to sing it. In any key. We will never have enough.
PS: Luckily Force of the Nature wasn't chosen as a single. It's one of Oasis' worst.
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Post by mossy on Nov 18, 2023 9:22:09 GMT -5
I never knew Liam had attempted Little By Little and Force of Nature.
Man I want to hear those now!
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Post by fadeaway on Nov 18, 2023 11:18:00 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I always thought what was meant by Noel writing songs with Liam's voice in mind was that Noel would think about whether Liam's tone of voice would sound good on the songs when writing them, not whether he would be able to hit the notes. Hence Noel writing stadium rock for Liam during the Oasis days, as opposed to the more mid-tempo stuff he's doing today.
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Post by tiger40 on Nov 18, 2023 13:34:40 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I always thought what was meant by Noel writing songs with Liam's voice in mind was that Noel would think about whether Liam's tone of voice would sound good on the songs when writing them, not whether he would be able to hit the notes. Hence Noel writing stadium rock for Liam during the Oasis days, as opposed to the more mid-tempo stuff he's doing today. Yeah, me too, I could never imagine Noel singing any of the songs from Definitely Maybe. Ok , he might have done some live but I can never imagine him singing songs like Rock N Roll Star, Columbia, Cigarettes And Alcohol . Also, I've never liked Noel's live version of Supersonic, I think it's awful and just ruins the song and the same goes for Listen Up. |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 18, 2023 17:07:29 GMT -5
I never knew Liam had attempted Little By Little and Force of Nature. Man I want to hear those now! Yeah I can’t remember where it’s mentioned but there are takes of both. |
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Post by mossy on Nov 18, 2023 17:18:31 GMT -5
I never knew Liam had attempted Little By Little and Force of Nature. Man I want to hear those now! Yeah I can’t remember where it’s mentioned but there are takes of both. Given the binned Lord Don’t Slow Me Down is more than passable, I’m very intrigued to hear these. |
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Post by matt on Nov 18, 2023 17:26:24 GMT -5
I can understand why Noel had to sing on some songs that Liam couldn't and for intimate, very personal acoustic numbers like Talk Tonight and Half The World Away.
But there's no excuse for not having Liam on this one.
Same goes for a lot of latter Oasis, would have loved to hear Liam on things like Mucky Fingers and Part of the Queue (the former not loved on here, but a song I've always backed). Noel's voice is fine but its just another voice amongst millions like it.
Stick to the band's USP for goodness sake - Noel written songs sung by Liam. Anything outside that remit should only be justified with an exceptionally good reason.
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Post by nutsngum on Nov 18, 2023 17:44:35 GMT -5
2) Song and Key Selection in Live SettingsNoel has claimed in interviews in the past that he lowers the key of the songs so that they are more comfortable for Liam to sing. However, the only two examples I can think of are Let's All Make Believe and The Hindu Times. Let's All Make Believe demo is actually in the same key as the released version - the leaked bootleg is on a cassette that's sped up by half a step. |
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Post by themanwholivesinhell on Nov 18, 2023 18:58:59 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I always thought what was meant by Noel writing songs with Liam's voice in mind was that Noel would think about whether Liam's tone of voice would sound good on the songs when writing them, not whether he would be able to hit the notes. Hence Noel writing stadium rock for Liam during the Oasis days, as opposed to the more mid-tempo stuff he's doing today. Yeah, me too, I could never imagine Noel singing any of the songs from Definitely Maybe. Ok , he might have done some live but I can never imagine him singing songs like Rock N Roll Star, Columbia, Cigarettes And Alcohol . Also, I've never liked Noel's live version of Supersonic, I think it's awful and just ruins the song and the same goes for Listen Up. Id have to go with that. Ive long said Definitely Maybe is the sole proof you need that neither wouldve made it alone. So many people just say “any pub singer couldve done those songs” and I just crack up. The blend of vocal power and attitude Liam brings to Rock N Roll Star, Up In The Sky, Columbia, Supersonic, Bring It On Down and Cigarettes and Alcohol is a big part of what those songs are. |
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Post by GlastoEls on Nov 18, 2023 19:06:27 GMT -5
Stick to the band's USP for goodness sake - Noel written songs sung by Liam. A million times this. |
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Post by capo2ndfret on Nov 19, 2023 7:39:39 GMT -5
I appreciate the discourse and agree that the songs were all made better by Liam’s singing. I guess I would have much preferred if Noel had just put all his guitars to D standard tuning when they went in the road to go a bit easier on Liam’s voice post 1997. It would have helped mitigate the damage a bit. I never knew Liam had attempted Little By Little and Force of Nature. Man I want to hear those now! Yeah I can’t remember where it’s mentioned but there are takes of both. I linked the relevant article in the OP. PS: sorry for double post, I’m on my mobile right now. |
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Post by matt on Nov 19, 2023 13:21:57 GMT -5
I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but this is always a talking point that has bothered me about the Oasis canon and something I believe people have got wrong. My belief is that Noel wrote the songs at a key that was comfortable for him and Liam just had to manage. If he couldn't, then Noel would take over. I'm absolutely open to having my mind changed but most people I have spoken to about Oasis online (particularly casual fans) believe that Noel wrote Oasis songs with Liam's voice in mind which is backed up by interviews like this one here with Matt Morgan (cannot remember the time stamp) where he explicitely states this. However, when you look at the recording of specific songs, the song and key selection in live settings, and lack of adjustement for Liam's continual vocal deterioration, I don't believe this to be the case. I will address each of these points in turn. [li] Force of Nature - This was supposed to be the lead single for Heathen Chemistry so Liam did a take but Noel's demo featured a better vocal so they went with Noel's take instead mad4gem.tripod.com/interviews/chemistrylessons.htmThis article is quite interesting, even if its for one of the worst recorded albums in rock history. Something crossed my mind when reading it though, the unheard terrible song Noel mentions that Liam wrote that name drops all Oasis singles (when they're discussing Songbird), I'm just wondering if elements of that turned into One Of Us. Said it has a shuffling rhythm and "You say you're gonna live forever" (replace it with "you said we'd live forever"). |
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Post by tiger40 on Nov 19, 2023 13:50:21 GMT -5
Yeah, me too, I could never imagine Noel singing any of the songs from Definitely Maybe. Ok , he might have done some live but I can never imagine him singing songs like Rock N Roll Star, Columbia, Cigarettes And Alcohol . Also, I've never liked Noel's live version of Supersonic, I think it's awful and just ruins the song and the same goes for Listen Up. Id have to go with that. Ive long said Definitely Maybe is the sole proof you need that neither wouldve made it alone. So many people just say “any pub singer couldve done those songs” and I just crack up. The blend of vocal power and attitude Liam brings to Rock N Roll Star, Up In The Sky, Columbia, Supersonic, Bring It On Down and Cigarettes and Alcohol is a big part of what those songs are. That's it those songs were made for Liam to sing he had the right voice for them. Ok we know that the acoustic songs like Half The World Away etc are made for Noel but Liam is better on the rock songs. |
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Post by themanwithnoname on Nov 19, 2023 16:57:37 GMT -5
I can understand why Noel had to sing on some songs that Liam couldn't and for intimate, very personal acoustic numbers like Talk Tonight and Half The World Away. But there's no excuse for not having Liam on this one. Same goes for a lot of latter Oasis, would have loved to hear Liam on things like Mucky Fingers and Part of the Queue (the former not loved on here, but a song I've always backed). Noel's voice is fine but its just another voice amongst millions like it. Stick to the band's USP for goodness sake - Noel written songs sung by Liam. Anything outside that remit should only be justified with an exceptionally good reason. Yep, would have loved a Liam-sung Mucky Fingers. |
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Post by theunderclass on Nov 20, 2023 5:44:28 GMT -5
Yeah I can’t remember where it’s mentioned but there are takes of both. Given the binned Lord Don’t Slow Me Down is more than passable, I’m very intrigued to hear these. That’s what I was thinking too, based on Lord Don’t Slow Me Down, the Liam sung Force of Nature and Little by Little are probably improvements, even if Noel didn’t think so! |
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Post by mossy on Nov 20, 2023 6:35:26 GMT -5
Given the binned Lord Don’t Slow Me Down is more than passable, I’m very intrigued to hear these. That’s what I was thinking too, based on Lord Don’t Slow Me Down, the Liam sung Force of Nature and Little by Little are probably improvements, even if Noel didn’t think so! The article above is quite the eye opener. Liam struggled to hit the notes, so they used Noel’s demo vocals instead?? You’re paying thousands a day for a studio which you’re in for months and you don’t think, “let’s let Liam go gargle some honey tonight and have another go tomorrow”? WTF. 🍯 |
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Post by The Chief on Nov 20, 2023 7:55:03 GMT -5
To me, it all depends on the era and whether or not the songs were written after Noel discovered the capo.
Before Noel discovered the capo, he wasn't writing with anyone in mind. He was just writing on standard tuning with standard chords. So Definitely Maybe and parts of MG and some songs in between just came about of him as is. After the capo, Noel always said he hated singing and at the time I think it was true. Liam was too much of a great singer and frontman at the time. So he might have written songs with a capo that he lowered when came time to record.
After 2000, it's a different story I think. Liam started forcing his voice in a weird Lennon/Lydon way and was at the same time unable to sing certain songs (Some Might Say, She's Electric, etc.) and getting less reliable in concert (this isn't just Noel saying, we all saw it at the time, for those who were born anyway). This lead Noel to start singing and writing more songs with himself in mind. He started talking about a solo record more frequently too which shows he was actually planning to do it even if he was always claiming that he wasn't really serious. But I do think that, bar songs like She Is Love, he still wanted Liam to sing them. Between 2000 and 2003, Noel seemed to want Oasis to be Oasis like it was before but with more songwriters. I think he started seeing Oasis differently with the DBTT sessions. That's when he started actively writing songs for himself. I don't think Mucky Fingers, The Importance of Being Idle and Part of the Queue were ever writted with Liam in mind. Same with Waiting for the Rapture and Falling Down.
So I don't think he was ever writing songs with specifically Liam in mind no. I think he was just writing songs at first, then writing songs for the singer of his band and then eventually started also writing songs for himself.
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5