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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Nov 17, 2018 16:22:34 GMT -5
I've made this point in a few other threads over the last couple months, but I think it deserves its own thread.
The common belief is that Noel was uninspired during the SOTSOG & HC eras, which produced (arguably) their worst albums, before rediscovering his form with DBTT, and has continued with his purple patch from 2005 to the present day.
I don't discredit that theory, per se. The man himself said he was feeling uninspired during HC. But I also don't think it's that black and white.
With Heathen Chemistry, and Standing On the Shoulder of Giants (and Dig Out Your Soul as well), you can rearrange tracklists with b-side inclusions from songs of that particular era and would end up with a quality album. We've all done this ad nauseam.
What this shows it that Noel had the quality tracks, he just fucked up the album tracklists. The only thing that changed from the 1990s era is the ratio between good songs and average or mediocre songs.
With DM, WTSMG, and BHN you can re-arrange album tracks and inclusions of b-sides and always end up with a quality album - the songs were always there, no matter the permutation. This ratio wasn't nearly as favorable in post-90s Oasis, but when you examine the tracks that were left off the albums it clearly shows Noel never lost his songwriting ability.
But because the ratio of good to bad songs was worse in post-90s Oasis, Noel's bad tracklists and the LAG democracy of songwriting was highlighted and masked the quality songs Noel actually had in his back-pocket.
This post is way too long, but the argument remains - Noel wrote quality songs from 1994 through 2018, and HC and SOTSOG should have been better albums - not because Noel lost his ability but rather because he fucked up his picks for the album.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 17, 2018 18:06:56 GMT -5
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 19, 2018 7:57:30 GMT -5
nonsense. He went from writing classic songs for a few years to someone what just writes decent enough songs.
i don't think anyone is saying he went from a great songwriter to a terrible one. He went from one that was writing some classics to someone that had developed his craft enough to write songs that are pleasing to the ear and well formed songs, but that's about it.
There's a magic about certain songs that can't be explained in a way. Great writers hit a peak where they can produce these magical songs. Noel never lost his skill per se, he is a good crafter of songs, but he certainly lost the ability to create those next level songs. He become for formulaic rather than inspired. Understandable though, once you become a big band and touring machine, that often happens.
For a brief period of time in the 90s, there was barely anybody on his level. After that, there has plenty of songwriters and bands producing as good or much better material than Noel. It is what it is. You can't hit a peak forever.
As i say though, i think this original post is insinuating that people think totally Noel lost his ability, which i don't think anyone thinks he did. He just become more average than great.
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Post by albarncoxon on Nov 19, 2018 9:00:29 GMT -5
nonsense. He went from writing classic songs for a few years to someone what just writes decent enough songs. i don't think anyone is saying he went from a great songwriter to a terrible one. He went from one that was writing some classics to someone that had developed his craft enough to write songs that are pleasing to the ear and well formed songs, but that's about it. There's a magic about certain songs that can't be explained in a way. Great writers hit a peak where they can produce these magical songs. Noel never lost his skill per se, he is a good crafter of songs, but he certainly lost the ability to create those next level songs. He become for formulaic rather than inspired. Understandable though, once you become a big band and touring machine, that often happens. For a brief period of time in the 90s, there was barely anybody on his level. After that, there has plenty of songwriters and bands producing as good or much better material than Noel. It is what it is. You can't hit a peak forever. As i say though, i think this original post is insinuating that people think totally Noel lost his ability, which i don't think anyone thinks he did. He just become more average than great. I agree with you... until a few weeks ago. Let´s face that since halfway 2000s music went to the trash bin, and it keep getting worse and worse. What is on top now is something that we can barely call ¨music¨. Young people seems not to care about quality music anymore, just disposable and plastic acts. Nobody cares about albums anymore, just singles, digital freaking singles. So, when Oasis reached the top of the world during 1996-1998 everyone was paying attention to anything they did. The dates of the release of a single was something that people expected, it was a big deal... But everything changed since then. Those fans grew up, and the younger people was into other kind of music. The old fans became parents, got a job... So, music was not the most important thing in their lives. But Noel hasn´t stop making great songs. I think the problem is that the music business has changed dramatically, and acts like Beyonce, Justin Bieber, Rihanna, and all that reggaeton and trap crap has invaded every corner of this world. It´s frustating, but it is truth. But, even in his ¨worst record¨ (according to some music experts), you can find songs like The Man Who Built the Moon, Dead in the Water, songs that if they were written during 1995-2000 would have been classics. Then you have Everybody´s on the Run, The Ballad of the Mighty I, Lock All the Doors, Alone on the Rope, While the Song Remains the Same (my favourite), and If I Had a Gun, a song that almost made me cry when I heard it live a few weeks ago, just like Little by Little. Then I realised that Noel keeps writting great, great songs... the kind that touches your heart. Well, is not the 90s anymore, people is not the same anymore, music business is not the same anymore... What music classics has been released the last couple of years? Gangman Style, We Found Love, Umbrella??? Most of the people lost their interest in good music and just care about rubbish music (not everything is bad, but just look at the charts and listen to radio...). So, in 2012 you can have If I Had a Gun, but at the same time you have I Knew you were Trouble, by Taylor Swift: guess what people prefers to listen... Is not about quality anymore, sadly. |
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Post by funhouse on Nov 19, 2018 9:50:28 GMT -5
One part of his songs not being as great anymore comes down to his declining ability to write great lyrics. He likes to talk about how none of his lyrics meant anything, but even if many of them didn't they still painted a picture that made the songs stand out and worth remembering more than 20 years later. There are highly quotable lines on nearly every song up until/around Be Here Now, since then it seems like he's lost that talent, or(presuming he put more time into it than he wanted to admit) he just lost intrest in it.
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 19, 2018 10:15:14 GMT -5
nonsense. He went from writing classic songs for a few years to someone what just writes decent enough songs. i don't think anyone is saying he went from a great songwriter to a terrible one. He went from one that was writing some classics to someone that had developed his craft enough to write songs that are pleasing to the ear and well formed songs, but that's about it. There's a magic about certain songs that can't be explained in a way. Great writers hit a peak where they can produce these magical songs. Noel never lost his skill per se, he is a good crafter of songs, but he certainly lost the ability to create those next level songs. He become for formulaic rather than inspired. Understandable though, once you become a big band and touring machine, that often happens. For a brief period of time in the 90s, there was barely anybody on his level. After that, there has plenty of songwriters and bands producing as good or much better material than Noel. It is what it is. You can't hit a peak forever. As i say though, i think this original post is insinuating that people think totally Noel lost his ability, which i don't think anyone thinks he did. He just become more average than great. I agree with you... until a few weeks ago. Let´s face that since halfway 2000s music went to the trash bin, and it keep getting worse and worse. What is on top now is something that we can barely call ¨music¨. Young people seems not to care about quality music anymore, just disposable and plastic acts. Nobody cares about albums anymore, just singles, digital freaking singles. So, when Oasis reached the top of the world during 1996-1998 everyone was paying attention to anything they did. The dates of the release of a single was something that people expected, it was a big deal... But everything changed since then. Those fans grew up, and the younger people was into other kind of music. The old fans became parents, got a job... So, music was not the most important thing in their lives. But Noel hasn´t stop making great songs. I think the problem is that the music business has changed dramatically, and acts like Beyonce, Justin Bieber, Rihanna, and all that reggaeton and trap crap has invaded every corner of this world. It´s frustating, but it is truth. But, even in his ¨worst record¨ (according to some music experts), you can find songs like The Man Who Built the Moon, Dead in the Water, songs that if they were written during 1995-2000 would have been classics. Then you have Everybody´s on the Run, The Ballad of the Mighty I, Lock All the Doors, Alone on the Rope, While the Song Remains the Same (my favourite), and If I Had a Gun, a song that almost made me cry when I heard it live a few weeks ago, just like Little by Little. Then I realised that Noel keeps writting great, great songs... the kind that touches your heart. Well, is not the 90s anymore, people is not the same anymore, music business is not the same anymore... What music classics has been released the last couple of years? Gangman Style, We Found Love, Umbrella??? Most of the people lost their interest in good music and just care about rubbish music (not everything is bad, but just look at the charts and listen to radio...). So, in 2012 you can have If I Had a Gun, but at the same time you have I Knew you were Trouble, by Taylor Swift: guess what people prefers to listen... Is not about quality anymore, sadly. see, i wouldn't consider any of those to be great songs, just good well crafted songs but nothing out of the ordinary. But thats opinion. The problem you're basing your comparison on his songs versus modern pop songs which i think it a flawed argument because Noel isn't a young pop star now and hasn't been for over 20 years. The music business always changes. It's pointless to compare what he does in comparison with them. Besides, the average mainstream music fan of a certain age probably consider some of todays pop songs classics of their generation too. That's just how it's always been. You can't really say that the industry has changed but he hasn't. Yeah, it's true that the industry today is geared towards a particular sound and there's not really room for guitar bands to produce a classic song in the mainstream like in the 90's, but even if there was, Noel wouldn't be doing it because the quality of his songs has dropped anyway and his time has long gone. There's been plenty of great albums in recent years that are better than anything Noel has done in the same time and many are not mainstream successes like Rihanna or whoever but they are still brilliant records. Noel's are just ok these days. Lets not forget, bands were popular and mainstream again in the mid 2000's. The singles and albums charts were full of guitar bands/indie bands or whatever you wanna call them, especially in the UK. Oasis were active then and still having big singles but didn't really produce any classics like they had before because the quality of songs weren't there like before. Plenty of bands at that time were releasing better records than Oasis. He still makes good music, just not relevant and not of the quality it once was and he's basically an old man in terms of the industry. that's basically all it comes down to. He might seem important to hardcore Oasis fans, but the truth is that he's as irrelevant as the likes of Weller, Ashcroft etc. etc. - Just an ageing rocker that peaked decades ago and now makes music that doesn't move anyone outside of a captured audience and that's ok. Some fans just cant accept that for some reason. |
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Post by Bonehead's Barber on Nov 19, 2018 10:54:44 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years.
None.
Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 19, 2018 16:05:53 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be  (1995)  (2016) Anyway, to the thread - while I think it's true that Noel never truly lost his songwriting ability, there's a massive difference between releasing about twenty era-defining classics in five years, and a crop solid/good/really good tracks over the next twenty. Even at his worst artistically he was writing hit singles, though, and at his worst commercially he comes up with well-respected albums. Man's a natural. |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Nov 19, 2018 17:14:37 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be The Bee Gees?
The Gibb brothers all continued to write great music from start to finish for over a period of 50 years. Barry kicked out a great solo album recently and if we add in Robin's Posthumous 50 St. Catherines Drive, that solo album contains some examples of his best work I think (Top 30 at least).
They had dips in quality during this time, but their genius was always there in a couple of examples or always came back full swing after a rough period.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 19, 2018 19:07:25 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be I'd say Weller's solo output has eclipsed Noels. Especially if you compare their first three solo records. |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 19, 2018 19:09:12 GMT -5
nonsense. He went from writing classic songs for a few years to someone what just writes decent enough songs. i don't think anyone is saying he went from a great songwriter to a terrible one. He went from one that was writing some classics to someone that had developed his craft enough to write songs that are pleasing to the ear and well formed songs, but that's about it. There's a magic about certain songs that can't be explained in a way. Great writers hit a peak where they can produce these magical songs. Noel never lost his skill per se, he is a good crafter of songs, but he certainly lost the ability to create those next level songs. He become for formulaic rather than inspired. Understandable though, once you become a big band and touring machine, that often happens. For a brief period of time in the 90s, there was barely anybody on his level. After that, there has plenty of songwriters and bands producing as good or much better material than Noel. It is what it is. You can't hit a peak forever. As i say though, i think this original post is insinuating that people think totally Noel lost his ability, which i don't think anyone thinks he did. He just become more average than great. Agreed. The fact that he was even producing a few good to very good songs after the glory days is something to happy about. Not many people do. |
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Post by Binary Sunset on Nov 19, 2018 20:46:40 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be Tom Petty didn't release a bad album from 1976 until 2002, and that's when he decided he didn't care to write "hits" anymore |
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Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 19, 2018 22:06:40 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be Tom Petty didn't release a bad album from 1976 until 2002, and that's when he decided he didn't care to write "hits" anymore I know people gravitate to Full Moon Fever but for my money, it doesn’t get much better than Wildflowers. |
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Post by Binary Sunset on Nov 19, 2018 22:14:49 GMT -5
Tom Petty didn't release a bad album from 1976 until 2002, and that's when he decided he didn't care to write "hits" anymore I know people gravitate to Full Moon Fever but for my money, it doesn’t get much better than Wildflowers. Wildflowers is his best album, other than Damn the Torpedoes. Rick Rubin's taste in producing is much more to my liking than Jeff Lynne, but then again without him you don't get Free Fallin', RDAD, or I Won't Back Down, so it all works out. It's just so weird to me that he had the most prolific streak of songwriting from his career from age 39-43. Crazy. Not many already popular artists get more popular 23 years into their careers... |
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Post by albarncoxon on Nov 20, 2018 12:14:31 GMT -5
I agree with you... until a few weeks ago. Let´s face that since halfway 2000s music went to the trash bin, and it keep getting worse and worse. What is on top now is something that we can barely call ¨music¨. Young people seems not to care about quality music anymore, just disposable and plastic acts. Nobody cares about albums anymore, just singles, digital freaking singles. So, when Oasis reached the top of the world during 1996-1998 everyone was paying attention to anything they did. The dates of the release of a single was something that people expected, it was a big deal... But everything changed since then. Those fans grew up, and the younger people was into other kind of music. The old fans became parents, got a job... So, music was not the most important thing in their lives. But Noel hasn´t stop making great songs. I think the problem is that the music business has changed dramatically, and acts like Beyonce, Justin Bieber, Rihanna, and all that reggaeton and trap crap has invaded every corner of this world. It´s frustating, but it is truth. But, even in his ¨worst record¨ (according to some music experts), you can find songs like The Man Who Built the Moon, Dead in the Water, songs that if they were written during 1995-2000 would have been classics. Then you have Everybody´s on the Run, The Ballad of the Mighty I, Lock All the Doors, Alone on the Rope, While the Song Remains the Same (my favourite), and If I Had a Gun, a song that almost made me cry when I heard it live a few weeks ago, just like Little by Little. Then I realised that Noel keeps writting great, great songs... the kind that touches your heart. Well, is not the 90s anymore, people is not the same anymore, music business is not the same anymore... What music classics has been released the last couple of years? Gangman Style, We Found Love, Umbrella??? Most of the people lost their interest in good music and just care about rubbish music (not everything is bad, but just look at the charts and listen to radio...). So, in 2012 you can have If I Had a Gun, but at the same time you have I Knew you were Trouble, by Taylor Swift: guess what people prefers to listen... Is not about quality anymore, sadly. see, i wouldn't consider any of those to be great songs, just good well crafted songs but nothing out of the ordinary. But thats opinion. The problem you're basing your comparison on his songs versus modern pop songs which i think it a flawed argument because Noel isn't a young pop star now and hasn't been for over 20 years. The music business always changes. It's pointless to compare what he does in comparison with them. Besides, the average mainstream music fan of a certain age probably consider some of todays pop songs classics of their generation too. That's just how it's always been. You can't really say that the industry has changed but he hasn't. Yeah, it's true that the industry today is geared towards a particular sound and there's not really room for guitar bands to produce a classic song in the mainstream like in the 90's, but even if there was, Noel wouldn't be doing it because the quality of his songs has dropped anyway and his time has long gone. There's been plenty of great albums in recent years that are better than anything Noel has done in the same time and many are not mainstream successes like Rihanna or whoever but they are still brilliant records. Noel's are just ok these days. Lets not forget, bands were popular and mainstream again in the mid 2000's. The singles and albums charts were full of guitar bands/indie bands or whatever you wanna call them, especially in the UK. Oasis were active then and still having big singles but didn't really produce any classics like they had before because the quality of songs weren't there like before. Plenty of bands at that time were releasing better records than Oasis. He still makes good music, just not relevant and not of the quality it once was and he's basically an old man in terms of the industry. that's basically all it comes down to. He might seem important to hardcore Oasis fans, but the truth is that he's as irrelevant as the likes of Weller, Ashcroft etc. etc. - Just an ageing rocker that peaked decades ago and now makes music that doesn't move anyone outside of a captured audience and that's ok. Some fans just cant accept that for some reason. Well, music always has changed, but not the way it has between 2000-2018. I wont deny that there are good records, superior to Noel's. But my point is that Noel is still writting great songs. Unfortunately, is not a relevant artist as it used to be, but I insist: if any of the highlights of his solo records were written or released during Oasis top years, they would have been classics. And of course there's no artist that can keep writting "classics" for 25 years in a row. There's no such thing. |
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Post by albarncoxon on Nov 20, 2018 12:15:46 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be (1995) (2016) Anyway, to the thread - while I think it's true that Noel never truly lost his songwriting ability, there's a massive difference between releasing about twenty era-defining classics in five years, and a crop solid/good/really good tracks over the next twenty. Even at his worst artistically he was writing hit singles, though, and at his worst commercially he comes up with well-respected albums. Man's a natural. Radiohead has released great albums, but average listener still wants to hear Creep. |
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 20, 2018 13:02:45 GMT -5
Radiohead has released great albums, but average listener still wants to hear Creep. The average listener likes Ed Sheeran and Migos, Jez, you can't trust the average listener. Exactly. They're all sitting behind their big marble desks, ties done up to eleven, clicking their fingers to the fucking Lighthouse Family, getting their dick sucked by a big Alsatian |
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Post by albarncoxon on Nov 20, 2018 14:10:44 GMT -5
Radiohead has released great albums, but average listener still wants to hear Creep. The average listener likes Ed Sheeran and Migos, Jez, you can't trust the average listener. Well: is exactly the same with Noel. I´m not saying that Radiohead sucks or something like that, but, despite the fact that their last records are great, there´s no ¨new classics¨. |
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Post by albarncoxon on Nov 20, 2018 14:13:29 GMT -5
The average listener likes Ed Sheeran and Migos, Jez, you can't trust the average listener. Exactly. They're all sitting behind their big marble desks, ties done up to eleven, clicking their fingers to the fucking Lighthouse Family, getting their dick sucked by a big Alsatian What? |
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 20, 2018 14:17:12 GMT -5
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Post by Bonehead's Barber on Nov 20, 2018 17:22:59 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be To anyone who disagrees with this post... Ding Dong |
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Nov 20, 2018 17:25:32 GMT -5
The average listener likes Ed Sheeran and Migos, Jez, you can't trust the average listener. Well: is exactly the same with Noel. I´m not saying that Radiohead sucks or something like that, but, despite the fact that their last records are great, there´s no ¨new classics¨. what? Mr fucking Ocean Colour Pants don't get it? Well quelle fucking surprise |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 20, 2018 17:32:42 GMT -5
The average listener likes Ed Sheeran and Migos, Jez, you can't trust the average listener. Exactly. They're all sitting behind their big marble desks, ties done up to eleven, clicking their fingers to the fucking Lighthouse Family, getting their dick sucked by a big Alsatian  |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Nov 20, 2018 17:34:44 GMT -5
The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no artist who consistently, for more than 20 years, can write banger after banger. You're all going to throw different artists at me, but there is no artist who is the same level of quality after 20 years. None. Noel didn't lose his ability, he is still brilliant. He just isn't as good as he used to be To anyone who disagrees with this post... Ding DongIf Noel has two solo records as good as Wild Wood and Stanley Road, I haven't heard them. |
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Post by freddy838 on Nov 20, 2018 20:58:17 GMT -5
I think Noel was less motivated as much as anything. He barely wrote a guitar solo in a decade after he was putting about 10 on each song in the 90s. If he had been really pushed I think he could have come up with better tunes. I agree he didn't help himself with song selection and choice of producer as reliastically all his and Oasis albums could have been improved with better tracklists. I don't compare him with Radiohead as Noel has never been as technically gifted a musician, plus I don't like a huge amount of Radiohead stuff anyway.
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5