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Post by Let It🩸 on Oct 18, 2017 18:03:20 GMT -5
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:04:46 GMT -5
Well, first off, communists would never take your house. That's not property, that's possession. You don't seem to get how it would work, the workers would take control of the production, and what is produced would be decided democratically by communites and syndicates. I don't understand what you're talking about haha, sorry :/ You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of owners of a shop are most likely to be living in the house,... in the garrets. You want communities to decide what they produce? So if 50 percent of society say; " we need blue jeans", would you wear them. This also leads to isolationism. I could walk to the next town over the mountain and buy what I want. Screw any motivated founders of new bussineses then. I'm not taking the p-ss. Do you think I want to get fashion guidelines by a society that contains of 40 percent post fashists? *Edit: fascists *Edit: "fashists" Oh, well if it's literally a house/shop building they would of course be allowed to stay, but the business would be closed. No, that's not how it works, that would be awful  Let's say you want some black jeans. There would be a syndicate of jean-production which would operate across wherever people wanted jeans, but would be controlled horizontally and be based on need. So if 10,539 people want black jeans, 10539 pair of jeans get made. You would have far more choice over what you eat, wear, etc... in communism because there is no price. It's not based on what 51% of people want, it's what everyone individual wants, just organised and controlled democratically. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:06:44 GMT -5
You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of owners of a shop are most likely to be living in the house,... in the garrets. You want communities to decide what they produce? So if 50 percent of society say; " we need blue jeans", would you wear them. This also leads to isolationism. I could walk to the next town over the mountain and buy what I want. Screw any motivated founders of new bussineses then. I'm not taking the p-ss. Do you think I want to get fashion guidelines by a society that contains of 40 percent post fashists? *Edit: fascists *Edit: "fashists" They can’t seem to recognize the danger communism can have on individuality and freedom We're both opposed to what's happening in these countries, I agree completely with how dangerous state control and taking power from the individual is. It should be stopped immediately. I just know it isn't communism, and you don't. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 18:07:01 GMT -5
You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of owners of a shop are most likely to be living in the house,... in the garrets. You want communities to decide what they produce? So if 50 percent of society say; " we need blue jeans", would you wear them. This also leads to isolationism. I could walk to the next town over the mountain and buy what I want. Screw any motivated founders of new bussineses then. I'm not taking the p-ss. Do you think I want to get fashion guidelines by a society that contains of 40 percent post fashists? *Edit: fascists *Edit: "fashists" Oh, well if it's literally a house/shop building they would of course be allowed to stay, but the business would be closed. No, that's not how it works, that would be awful Let's say you want some black jeans. There would be a syndicate of jean-production which would operate across wherever people wanted jeans, but would be controlled horizontally and be based on need. So if 10,539 people want black jeans, 10539 pair of jeans get made. You would have far more choice over what you eat, wear, etc... in communism because there is no price. It's not based on what 51% of people want, it's what everyone individual wants, just organised and controlled democratically. And situations like THIS is why communism is not around anymore, except for in a handful of countries. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:10:02 GMT -5
Oh, well if it's literally a house/shop building they would of course be allowed to stay, but the business would be closed. No, that's not how it works, that would be awful Let's say you want some black jeans. There would be a syndicate of jean-production which would operate across wherever people wanted jeans, but would be controlled horizontally and be based on need. So if 10,539 people want black jeans, 10539 pair of jeans get made. You would have far more choice over what you eat, wear, etc... in communism because there is no price. It's not based on what 51% of people want, it's what everyone individual wants, just organised and controlled democratically. And situations like THIS is why communism is not around anymore, except for in a handful of countries. Look, no-one's gonna take your points seriously until you admit that the countries you're talking about aren't implementing communist ideology. It doesn't matter how many times you make the same point, it's still gonna be wrong. Unless, of course, you can show us an example of them implementing communist ideology? |
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Post by uǝɥʇɐǝɥ on Oct 18, 2017 18:13:26 GMT -5
You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of owners of a shop are most likely to be living in the house,... in the garrets. You want communities to decide what they produce? So if 50 percent of society say; " we need blue jeans", would you wear them. This also leads to isolationism. I could walk to the next town over the mountain and buy what I want. Screw any motivated founders of new bussineses then. I'm not taking the p-ss. Do you think I want to get fashion guidelines by a society that contains of 40 percent post fashists? *Edit: fascists *Edit: "fashists" Oh, well if it's literally a house/shop building they would of course be allowed to stay, but the business would be closed. No, that's not how it works, that would be awful Let's say you want some black jeans. There would be a syndicate of jean-production which would operate across wherever people wanted jeans, but would be controlled horizontally and be based on need. So if 10,539 people want black jeans, 10539 pair of jeans get made. You would have far more choice over what you eat, wear, etc... in communism because there is no price. It's not based on what 51% of people want, it's what everyone individual wants, just organised and controlled democratically. Come on, what's with the 30 people of them who want the PG "summer" parka?  |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 18:14:06 GMT -5
And situations like THIS is why communism is not around anymore, except for in a handful of countries. Look, no-one's gonna take your points seriously until you admit that the countries you're talking about aren't implementing communist ideology. It doesn't matter how many times you make the same point, it's still gonna be wrong. Unless, of course, you can show us an example of them implementing communist ideology? I don’t have to prove anything to you, and even if I did you’d say I’m wrong so I’m not bothering. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 18:20:01 GMT -5
The Escapist man, you should stop bothering. You've been asking the same thing from jordan71421 for about ten pages and he still hasn't properly responded and at that point I don't think he will. He’s wrapped up in the semantics of the words and that’s a never ending rabbit hole of buzzwords so I’m not bothering with him. Go ahead and keep promoting oppressive regimes what don’t ya |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:20:31 GMT -5
Look, no-one's gonna take your points seriously until you admit that the countries you're talking about aren't implementing communist ideology. It doesn't matter how many times you make the same point, it's still gonna be wrong. Unless, of course, you can show us an example of them implementing communist ideology? I don’t have to prove anything to you, and even if I did you’d say I’m wrong so I’m not bothering. Well, thanks for that enlightening discussion. Normally I'd have to go to The_Donald to find someone so confident of their views with so little evidence to back it up. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:21:30 GMT -5
Oh, well if it's literally a house/shop building they would of course be allowed to stay, but the business would be closed. No, that's not how it works, that would be awful Let's say you want some black jeans. There would be a syndicate of jean-production which would operate across wherever people wanted jeans, but would be controlled horizontally and be based on need. So if 10,539 people want black jeans, 10539 pair of jeans get made. You would have far more choice over what you eat, wear, etc... in communism because there is no price. It's not based on what 51% of people want, it's what everyone individual wants, just organised and controlled democratically. Come on, what's with the 30 people of them who want the PG "summer" parka? Sent to the gulags, obviously  |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 18:24:56 GMT -5
I don’t have to prove anything to you, and even if I did you’d say I’m wrong so I’m not bothering. Well, thanks for that enlightening discussion. Normally I'd have to go to The_Donald to find someone so confident of their views with so little evidence to back it up. No evidence would be good enough for you so why would I keep answering you? |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:29:44 GMT -5
Well, thanks for that enlightening discussion. Normally I'd have to go to The_Donald to find someone so confident of their views with so little evidence to back it up. No evidence would be good enough for you so why would I keep answering you? The second you can show me how any of the countries you're talking about as examples of the "dangers of communism" are in any way implementing communist ideology is when I'll be happy. But you're not going to because you can't because they aren't. Simple as, really. By the way, what would you call a society based on working class control with no state or class, and decentralised power? What ideology would you refer to that society as, if it's not communism? Don't come back with a witty reply, I'd honestly like to know what you think that is. |
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Post by uǝɥʇɐǝɥ on Oct 18, 2017 18:37:03 GMT -5
I would be a good right winger
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 18:49:48 GMT -5
No evidence would be good enough for you so why would I keep answering you? The second you can show me how any of the countries you're talking about as examples of the "dangers of communism" are in any way implementing communist ideology is when I'll be happy. But you're not going to because you can't because they aren't. Simple as, really. By the way, what would you call a society based on working class control with no state or class, and decentralised power? What ideology would you refer to that society as, if it's not communism? Don't come back with a witty reply, I'd honestly like to know what you think that is. Not possible |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 18:52:49 GMT -5
The second you can show me how any of the countries you're talking about as examples of the "dangers of communism" are in any way implementing communist ideology is when I'll be happy. But you're not going to because you can't because they aren't. Simple as, really. By the way, what would you call a society based on working class control with no state or class, and decentralised power? What ideology would you refer to that society as, if it's not communism? Don't come back with a witty reply, I'd honestly like to know what you think that is. Not possible Well done. |
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Post by glider on Oct 18, 2017 19:07:52 GMT -5
Just so I can understand, is this debate about determining what nation follows textbook communism and one that doesn't? Because I can't think of any country, at least during the Cold War, that followed the ideology to a tee. The Soviet Union and its eastern bloc related countries weren't textbook communism at all.
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 19:10:12 GMT -5
Just so I can understand, is this debate about determining what nation follows textbook communism and one that doesn't? Because I can't think of any country, at least during the Cold War, that followed the ideology to a tee. The Soviet Union and its eastern bloc related countries weren't textbook communism at all. That's what my point is. Just because the countries I've listed doesn't follow communism 100% doesn't mean there aren't communist influences. And I believe those influences are dangerous. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 19:13:33 GMT -5
Just so I can understand, is this debate about determining what nation follows textbook communism and one that doesn't? Because I can't think of any country, at least during the Cold War, that followed the ideology to a tee. The Soviet Union and its eastern bloc related countries weren't textbook communism at all. That's what my point is. Just because the countries I've listed doesn't follow communism 100% doesn't mean there aren't communist influences. And I believe those influences are dangerous. "Didn't follow communism 100%"
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Post by glider on Oct 18, 2017 19:15:06 GMT -5
Just so I can understand, is this debate about determining what nation follows textbook communism and one that doesn't? Because I can't think of any country, at least during the Cold War, that followed the ideology to a tee. The Soviet Union and its eastern bloc related countries weren't textbook communism at all. That's what my point is. Just because the countries I've listed doesn't follow communism 100% doesn't mean there aren't communist influences. And I believe those influences are dangerous. I'm not taking sides with this but your view is that the fundamental ideology itself is wrong, correct? And Escapist's is that it is fundamentally right? The Escapist correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 19:19:22 GMT -5
That's what my point is. Just because the countries I've listed doesn't follow communism 100% doesn't mean there aren't communist influences. And I believe those influences are dangerous. I'm not taking sides with this but your view is that the fundamental ideology itself is wrong, correct? And Escapist's is that it is fundamentally right? The Escapist correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption Yes I believe that's true. Then I've been scolded countless times for saying that China, North Korea, Laos etc were communist |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 19:19:39 GMT -5
That's what my point is. Just because the countries I've listed doesn't follow communism 100% doesn't mean there aren't communist influences. And I believe those influences are dangerous. I'm not taking sides with this but your view is that the fundamental ideology itself is wrong, correct? And Escapist's is that it is fundamentally right? The Escapist correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption I think so - I call myself an anarchist more than a communist, but I do agree with it's vision for society. I disagree with Marxists on how to get there but ally often with the anarcho-communists. So I'm pretty close it ideologically, if not in it. What Jordan is saying is that you can see the ideology is bad because of places like North Korea. I've explained in detail why such countries aren't following communist ideology in the slightest, how the misconception came about, gave examples of real communist societies, and agreed with his hatred of places like Cuba. But, for him, it seems that you don't need to actually put any communist ideas into practice to be communist - just the name is fine. So in his mind his original point stands despite the fact that it's clearly a strawman. |
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Post by mystoryisgory on Oct 18, 2017 19:24:40 GMT -5
oasisserbia and jordan71421 sorry about calling you guys idiots. I very strongly disagree with what you guys have said but insults never help with anything. I've had a very rough day at work today, hope you guys understand.
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 19:30:47 GMT -5
Chomsky once said that you shouldn't argue to persuade people, but to give them the means to discover things by themselves. So Jordan, why don't you humour me and try this?
Read these two books, which I think most would consider the main cornerstones of communist ideology:
The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin
Read about communism online, check out communist youtube channels, etc...and see what they believe.
Then look at the history of places like the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Cuba with a critical mind. See what modern communists think of them. Ask yourself "Are these societies really trying to achieve the same goals as Marx and Kropotkin, and all the other communists?" If you honestly think yes, then you clearly can't be convinced - but it might be enlightening anyway.
I think the only rational conclusion you can come to is that they were simply fascist regimes from day one that had no interest in implementing any communist ideology.
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Post by glider on Oct 18, 2017 19:31:27 GMT -5
Okay, I can see both sides of this clearly.
Jordan, you and I are both Americans and we've been taught for years that throughout the Cold War, those eastern bloc countries, along with others like Vietnam and China, were all simply 'communist'. This idea of communism wasn't actually textbook communism whatsoever, primarily because of the Bolsheviks molding it into something that fit their own idea of what the Russian nation should've been. Stalin's 'communism' obviously was just as cruel as fascism (keep in mind Hitler and Stalin had an 'agreement' with invading Poland prior to Hitler going at the USSR). This pseudo form of communism dominated the 20th century - so now you had tons of pro-Soviet nations pop up, which didn't really represent textbook communism.
If anything, what country has ever successfully implemented the purest form of its political ideology that promotes the people? The United States and the western world obviously isn't textbook capitalism, China is far from any sort of actual communism, since it embraced free market. We can all agree these authoritarian governments that have been called communist are terrible, but they do not represent textbook communism at all. I don't think any country has.
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 19:36:19 GMT -5
Okay, I can see both sides of this clearly. Jordan, you and I are both Americans and we've been taught for years that throughout the Cold War, those eastern bloc countries, along with others like Vietnam and China, were all simply 'communist'. This idea of communism wasn't actually textbook communism whatsoever, primarily because of the Bolsheviks molding it into something that fit their own idea of what the Russian nation should've been. Stalin's 'communism' obviously was just as cruel as fascism (keep in mind Hitler and Stalin had an 'agreement' with invading Poland prior to Hitler going at the USSR). This pseudo form of communism dominated the 20th century - so now you had tons of pro-Soviet nations pop up, which didn't really represent textbook communism. If anything, what country has ever successfully implemented the purest form of its political ideology that promotes the people? The United States and the western world obviously isn't textbook capitalism, China is far from any sort of actual communism, since it embraced free market. We can all agree these authoritarian governments that have been called communist are terrible, but they do not represent textbook communism at all. I don't think any country has. My point is that they weren't "just as cruel as fascism" - they were fascism. As soon as they were created they destroyed any working class control, increased the power of the state, and centralised decision making to an elite "vanguard party". Marx, Engels, and Kropotkin would have considered all this absolutely outrageous. Using these places to discredit their ideologies is ignorant at best. |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5