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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jul 7, 2017 10:03:49 GMT -5
Sorry for the title being a bit clunky, but you only get a certain amount of characters to work with.
What I'm trying to say is: you know when Noel talks about not wanting to give up the meaning of his songs because it spoils it for the fans who've already attached their own meanings to them? While I applaud his sentiment, and agree with him in many cases, I think that, sometimes, knowing where a song has come from can lend it an extra power. This has happened to me a couple of times recently. Firstly, with Radiohead's No Surprises, when I learnt how a two hour bus journey Thom Yorke took, surrounded by old-age pensioners, inspired its writing, and then again, just a few days ago, with this Paul Weller tune:
(I'm gonna focus on the Weller one here because so much has already been said about all the tunes on Radiohead's post-Britpop masterpiece, OK Computer, that I'm sure I wouldn't have anything interesting to add.)
I Should Have Been There to Inspire You is a Paul Weller song I've never cared that much for before, thinking as I did, that it was just another in a long line of songs written about his kids. Also, knowing how Weller had taken to partying with our Noel in those whirlwind days of 1996 when this must've written, I could never really take the whole rockstar-who-feels-guilty-about-having-spent-so-much-time-away-on-tour thing that I thought he was getting at, seriously. Previously, when listening to it, I always just used to amuse myself with the image of him waking up at two in the afternoon one day, on the floor of Noel's kitchen in Supernova Heights, and realising "Fack me! I was supposed to be doing the school run..."
But then I came across an interview with him -- you know, one of those where someone out of a band has to awkwardly answer questions put to them by fans, about what's their favourite song to play live, and so on -- and he was being asked about what inspired the writing of this song. He answered the following:
The tune is still not one of my favourites from him, but with the knowledge of what it's really about, I now enjoy the words a lot more. In particular, I find the last verse to be quite moving now:
Friends' harsh words cut deep and sore, But believe me, mine will hurt me more, In those moments before I sleep, When I'm truly alone to see
I should've been there to inspire you, Not paint your world a cold, cold blue...
...
And so, for anyone who couldn't be arsed reading the last couple of paragraphs...
What I'm asking for is examples of songs that have gone up in your estimations once you'd learnt what inspired them.
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Post by discworld on Jul 7, 2017 10:59:45 GMT -5
not one of my favourites but a good surprise at every listen of this album.
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Post by joladella on Jul 7, 2017 11:43:46 GMT -5
Not sure if that's what you mean, but this song by The Pogues, "Thousands are sailing" totally changed in my perception when I read a book about them and learned that it was written by Philip Chevron and is not just about, as one might think, the Irish Diaspora, but also his own experiences of coming to the US for the first time. So f.ex. the line "we stepped hand in hand on Broadway" is not, as I always thought, about that Irish immigrant and his girl, but about Chevron and his bandmate James Fearnley who did exactly that, as friends. Also makes it a bit bittersweet, as in that book I also learned that Chevron had an unrequited crush on Fearnley. So it's actually a very personal song and ever since then, as much as I love McGowan's singing, I prefer to listen to it by Chevron, who sang it with such an emotion that it changed the song from one I liked to one of my favorite songs ever. And I don't think that would have happened if I had not known its backstory and that of its creator who, from what I've read about him, seems to have been a really special and lovely guy, gone way too soon.
Another one by The Pogues, "My baby's gone", written and sung by Andrew Ranken. It sounds like your typical "lost my love" song, until you learn that Ranken actually lost his wife tragically during childbirth. Here it kind of goes the other way, because ever since I learned that, I almost feel guilty about liking that song so much, a mourning song that is not sung sad or wistful, but actually quite angry. In this case, I sometimes wish I had not known that!
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Jul 7, 2017 12:07:03 GMT -5
That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, joladella. Cheers. Will give those tunes a listen later. Been meaning to try out some Pogues, for a while, because of the Nick Cave link, you know...
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Post by joladella on Jul 7, 2017 12:13:20 GMT -5
That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for, joladella . Cheers. Will give those tunes a listen later. Been meaning to try out some Pogues, for a while, because of the Nick Cave link, you know... Uh, Nick Cave is another strong contender for this topic then, for when you actually do not want to know, I really did not want to buy and listen to "Skeleton tree", knowing it was recorded after his sons tragical death, but then I did anyway and it is absolutely beautiful, but so so sad, of course.
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Post by matt on Jul 8, 2017 10:50:56 GMT -5
I completely agree, songs are always the better for me when I get a sense of place and a sense of meaning.
I didn't know about Thom Yorke's inspiration for No Surprises - a melancholy story there, a group of old folk on a stuffy coach going somewhere and just further adds to the poignancy of the song. Knowing that improves an already outstanding song.
So I completely disagree with Noel on this - these contexts and meanings may not relate specifically to you, but helped massively with a degree of empathy (if you have empathy, wonder if Noel does....), you'd still be able to relate to the broad emotions that are conjured up.
So yeah, Noel talking bollocks again.
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Post by mystoryisgory on Jul 9, 2017 1:55:15 GMT -5
(First, allow me to extend your definition of "inspiration behind a song" to include how a song was created, or stories surrounding the recording of a song.)
Because I normally discover music through the internet, usually on Wikipedia or this forum, my first exposure to a song or album often is the inspiration behind the song, and that is what intrigues me to delve deeper. For example, I found out about William Basinski's ambient drone masterpiece The Disintegration Loops through clicking around on Wikipedia and reading about how Basinski had created the works by chance by letting an analog tape loop degrade with every time it was recorded again. This idea of music from entropy, beauty through destruction, was a fascinating concept to me. That one of the pieces was used as a soundtrack to a film on 9/11 only made the music more intriguing, and when I listened to the albums, more powerful.
But I often wonder whether the inspiration (or mythology) surrounding a particular song, album, or band, often overshadows the actual music itself. I once read an article about The Disintegration Loops wherein the author dismissed it as no greater than any other ambient pieces by The Necks or Eno, and went as far as to accuse Basinski of using the story behind the music as clever marketing gimmick. I disagreed with the author, but his accusation resonated with me as I realized that this phenomenon wasn't unique to ambient music. I've found that the mythology surrounding many bands, especially cult bands like Joy Division and The Velvet Underground, and even The Beatles themselves, can eclipse the music. Is the music actually good, or do we only like it because of the mythology that surrounds it? Are we in love with the music or the idea of the music? Does theyknowwhatimean like that Weller tune because it's a good tune or because he likes the idea of a tune about helping others because you've let people down? Shouldn't good music be able to be appreciated without knowledge of its inspiration, as most people do anyway?
I don't think so. It's often difficult, if not impossible to separate a song from its inspiration/historical context. Take Fela Kuti's album Zombie, which was a stunning attack on the Nigerian military juntas of the time. In fact, the album's release led to the murder of Kuti's mother and the destruction of his home village. Someone who listened to that album without knowing that it was criticizing Nigeria's government and the government's retaliation would be sorely deprived of the experience of listening to Zombie. Just like if you saw Picasso's Guernica without knowing that it was inspired by the Nazi bombing of the Spanish city of the same name. And to use an example that the forum would be more familiar with, how on earth can you get the most out of Sgt. Pepper if you don't know that it was a cornerstone album of 60's counterculture? Knowing the inspiration behind a song can give you a better sense of the artist's perspective.
Despite this, as time goes on, I find myself less and less interested in the "meaning" behind a song and more interested in what the music means to me. I don't really give a fuck these days about what a band had in mind when they wrote the song. After the music is released, it no longer belongs to the creator but to the listener. That is, me. As a result, I find myself gravitating toward genres of music that is more "vague" by nature, something without a specific meaning or message, like jazz or electronica. There's no discernible meaning in Bitches Brew or Time Out or Rounds or Cosmogramma, and they're all the better for that; their genius is in how they capture a feeling, i.e. how they make you feel. Emphasis on you. And how they make the listener feel will differ from listener to listener. It's all about the value of the individual experience, innit?
So while it is undeniably insightful to know the inspiration behind a song to get a better glimpse of the writer's perspective, knowing that specific inspiration can dictate what the song means to you personally. To avoid this, we should establish what a song means to us first before we find out what actually inspired the song so that the inspiration doesn't tarnish our own interpretation. But, unfortunately, I don't usually have that opportunity because I've already read about a song's inspiration before I even listen to it. Damnit!
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Jul 9, 2017 10:22:11 GMT -5
The Demons and Wizards (band, not album) song Fiddler on the Green has an odd back story: Hansi was walking his dog when a car hit a boy on his bike. A week later it happened again: Same man, same dog, same spot. I think it's the fiddler (Germany's reaper) saying 'shit, I really screwed up twice'
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Aug 3, 2017 17:04:26 GMT -5
Win Butler:
I liked the song from my first listen, but that's definitely become more heightened since I found out what inspired its lyrics. Before, I thought it was just a declaration of romantic love - a kind of 'our love is so pure we could live inside a children's story' thing. I wouldn't have greatly minded that, but I'm much more into the idea of Win using the tune to pine for the innocence of childhood; for a time when he didn't have to confront the harsh realities of life as he has to now. It's another well-trodden path, I suppose, but one I've always enjoyed.
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Post by The Escapist on Aug 3, 2017 17:10:55 GMT -5
Win Butler: I liked the song from my first listen, but that's definitely become more heightened since I found out what inspired its lyrics. Before, I thought it was just a declaration of romantic love - a kind of 'our love is so pure we could live inside a children's story' thing. I wouldn't have greatly minded that, but I'm much more into the idea of Win pining for the innocence of childhood; for when he didn't have to confront the harsh realities of life as he has to now. It's another well-trodden path, I suppose, but one I've always enjoyed. At first I assumed that it was just a sweet pick-me-up after Creature Comfort ("We can live, I don't feel like dying" most obviously) but this background certainly gives it more weight - the references to cancers and sickness in particular. I'd say A Moon-Shaped Pool fits this idea, too. It went from beautifully sad to absolutely fucking heartbreaking for me after Rachel's tragic passing.
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Aug 5, 2017 9:55:40 GMT -5
I completely agree, songs are always the better for me when I get a sense of place and a sense of meaning. I didn't know about Thom Yorke's inspiration for No Surprises - a melancholy story there, a group of old folk on a stuffy coach going somewhere and just further adds to the poignancy of the song. Knowing that improves an already outstanding song. So I completely disagree with Noel on this - these contexts and meanings may not relate specifically to you, but helped massively with a degree of empathy (if you have empathy, wonder if Noel does....), you'd still be able to relate to the broad emotions that are conjured up. So yeah, Noel talking bollocks again. I can see where Noel's coming from with regards to the knowledge of an artist's intentions getting in the way of you being able to equate it to your own experiences. Take my favourite Beatles tune, Dear Prudence, for example. Granted, it's more for musical reasons why I love the tune than for its lyrics, but being an introverted sort of person myself, I'm naturally quite attracted to narratives that try and encourage folk to get out there and not stay hidden away (just so long as they manage to avoid coming across as patronising). And so to learn that, actually, John Lennon wrote the song to order, for Mia Farrow's dimwit sister who'd locked herself away for three weeks so that she might "reach God before anybody else", when they were all off meditating in India, that rather spoils it for me, d'you know what I mean? Noel has offered up some glimpses into what was going on in his head when he wrote certain lines (like the "astrological" intentions of "I live my life for the stars that shine", and Cast No Shadow being inspired by Ashcroft) but crucially, I think, he's also remained quiet on other things and let us, the dedicated fans who repeatedly play his records year after year, work them out for ourselves. Like how the imagery of "...I've found a key upon the floor / Maybe you and I will not believe in the things we find behind the door", from Stand By Me, seems to reference Fade Away. And how how the lyric "I'm free to be whatever I want, and I'll sing the blues if I want" is, as well as being typically self-assured, also quite bittersweet in that way that quite a lot of Noel's Definitely Maybe-era writing was (Half the World Away, Married with Children, Fade Away, etc.). I appreciate that I've been able to work some of this things out for myself, without him just coming out and telling us all in some poxy radio interview.
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Post by matt on Aug 5, 2017 18:53:33 GMT -5
I completely agree, songs are always the better for me when I get a sense of place and a sense of meaning. I didn't know about Thom Yorke's inspiration for No Surprises - a melancholy story there, a group of old folk on a stuffy coach going somewhere and just further adds to the poignancy of the song. Knowing that improves an already outstanding song. So I completely disagree with Noel on this - these contexts and meanings may not relate specifically to you, but helped massively with a degree of empathy (if you have empathy, wonder if Noel does....), you'd still be able to relate to the broad emotions that are conjured up. So yeah, Noel talking bollocks again. I can see where Noel's coming from with regards to the knowledge of an artist's intentions getting in the way of you being able to equate it to your own experiences. Take my favourite Beatles tune, Dear Prudence, for example. Granted, it's more for musical reasons why I love the tune than for its lyrics, but being an introverted sort of person myself, I'm naturally quite attracted to narratives that try and encourage folk to get out there and not stay hidden away (just so long as they manage to avoid coming across as patronising). And so to learn that, actually, John Lennon wrote the song to order, for Mia Farrow's dimwit sister who'd locked herself away for three weeks so that she might "reach God before anybody else", when they were all off meditating in India, that rather spoils it for me, d'you know what I mean? Noel has offered up some glimpses into what was going on in his head when he wrote certain lines (like the "astrological" intentions of "I live my life for the stars that shine", and Cast No Shadow being inspired by Ashcroft) but crucially, I think, he's also remained quiet on other things and let us, the dedicated fans who repeatedly play his records year after year, work them out for ourselves. Like how the imagery of "...I've found a key upon the floor / Maybe you and I will not believe in the things we find behind the door", from Stand By Me, seems to reference Fade Away. And how how the lyric "I'm free to be whatever I want, and I'll sing the blues if I want" is, as well as being typically self-assured, also quite bittersweet in that way that quite a lot of Noel's Definitely Maybe-era writing was (Half the World Away, Married with Children, Fade Away, etc.). I appreciate that I've been able to work some of this things out for myself, without him just coming out and telling us all in some poxy radio interview. Good point well argued, especially taking the Dear Prudence interpretation into account.
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Post by The Escapist on Aug 8, 2017 0:29:42 GMT -5
How to Disappear Completely:
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