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Post by girllikeabomb on Jul 1, 2022 19:38:32 GMT -5
This implies there's successful colonialism.... do tell... Google “Hawaii”. In all seriousness, my only issue is that at this juncture I see independence as inevitable - for various reasons (most of which have been touched on already in this thread). And because of referendum lethargy. And because you’re making yourselves look like indecisive whingebags. So, like, please just vote leave and be done with it. Thanks.
Might not have googled hard enough.
There is a very active movement for Hawaiian sovereignty among natives, so colonialism for the loss again.
Just mentioning that -- not planning to get involved in the Anglo-Scottish wars here ...
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Post by walterglass on Jul 1, 2022 21:50:17 GMT -5
Google “Hawaii”. In all seriousness, my only issue is that at this juncture I see independence as inevitable - for various reasons (most of which have been touched on already in this thread). And because of referendum lethargy. And because you’re making yourselves look like indecisive whingebags. So, like, please just vote leave and be done with it. Thanks.
Might not have googled hard enough.
There is a very active movement for Hawaiian sovereignty among natives, so colonialism for the loss again.
Just mentioning that -- not planning to get involved in the Anglo-Scottish wars here ...
Doh! Beaten again! I really have no issue with the Scots, apart from them being insufferably Scottish all the time. |
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Post by dampcottage on Jul 2, 2022 1:16:32 GMT -5
I hope you vote for independence. You’re no use to us anymore. If you ever were. No use at all... |
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Post by walterglass on Jul 2, 2022 1:29:44 GMT -5
I hope you vote for independence. You’re no use to us anymore. If you ever were. No use at all... Yeah, well…you can PROVE anything with FACTS. I wonder, has any other country ever cashed itself in to a neighbour? I’ll wait… Your ancestors were cleared out and replaced with…wait for it…SHEEP. I’d sooner be Welsh. And they’re, like, well they’re Welsh aren’t they. |
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Post by oasisserbia on Jul 2, 2022 2:00:59 GMT -5
I am proud of being Scottish 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by globe on Jul 2, 2022 2:43:30 GMT -5
Yeah, well…you can PROVE anything with FACTS. I wonder, has any other country ever cashed itself in to a neighbour? I’ll wait… Your ancestors were cleared out and replaced with…wait for it…SHEEP. I’d sooner be Welsh. And they’re, like, well they’re Welsh aren’t they. Ok we get it. The Scots and Welsh are simply inferior to you amazing English people, we rely on hand outs from our amazing, generous cousins to simply survive. What about NI? Hangers on over there to I guess? |
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Post by oasisserbia on Jul 2, 2022 3:21:38 GMT -5
Fucking hell, if you people on Oasis forum are thinking like that, I can only imagine what average people think 🤣
No, really, as someone who grew up during civil war and break up of one big country, it is not worth it. And shit can happen much more easily than you think.
So, let them vote and whatever happens, let it be.
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Post by matt on Jul 2, 2022 5:54:27 GMT -5
An “InGeRLuND c*nt is all he is.
And Oasisserbia, I read your above post and thought you were an idiot for suggesting division is not worth it but thinking about it, I get the concept of division is a deadly and traumatic thing from your experience so apologies for that. But no threat of violence here, just really at wits end with a bunch of c*nts in Westminster making a mockery of everyone.
Aside from idiots like walterglass who are the only people that shower of shite represent. As for walterglass...... well no wonder your wife left you.
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Post by funhouse on Jul 2, 2022 6:51:30 GMT -5
As for walterglass...... well no wonder your wife left you. *seceded |
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Post by globe on Jul 2, 2022 6:53:27 GMT -5
Fucking hell, if you people on Oasis forum are thinking like that, I can only imagine what average people think 🤣 No, really, as someone who grew up during civil war and break up of one big country, it is not worth it. And shit can happen much more easily than you think. So, let them vote and whatever happens, let it be. I see where you are coming from but I really don’t think you can compare the former Yugoslavia to the UK. The social, religious and ethnic differences that causes the break up of the Balkan countries don’t exist here. |
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Post by walterglass on Jul 2, 2022 7:26:50 GMT -5
Yeah, well…you can PROVE anything with FACTS. I wonder, has any other country ever cashed itself in to a neighbour? I’ll wait… Your ancestors were cleared out and replaced with…wait for it…SHEEP. I’d sooner be Welsh. And they’re, like, well they’re Welsh aren’t they. Ok we get it. The Scots and Welsh are simply inferior to you amazing English people, we rely on hand outs from our amazing, generous cousins to simply survive. What about NI? Hangers on over there to I guess? You’re plunging this thread in to silliness with suggestions like that. I mean, Irish are nothing like you lot. Apart from the alcoholism that is. The Oirish are god’s people and salt of the earth. And no mistake. Dear me. |
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Post by oasisserbia on Jul 2, 2022 8:54:38 GMT -5
Fucking hell, if you people on Oasis forum are thinking like that, I can only imagine what average people think 🤣 No, really, as someone who grew up during civil war and break up of one big country, it is not worth it. And shit can happen much more easily than you think. So, let them vote and whatever happens, let it be. I see where you are coming from but I really don’t think you can compare the former Yugoslavia to the UK. The social, religious and ethnic differences that causes the break up of the Balkan countries don’t exist here. From 1918 to 1941, between two wars, biggest tensions and conficts were in Macedonia. Almost every Yugoslavian cop was there. And Macedonia was only country that left Yugoslavia in the 90s without war. People in Bosnia loved Yugoslavia more than anyone else. When war broke out in Slovenia in Croatia in 1991, almost everyone in Bosnia were sure that it won't happen in Bosnia. And the bloodiest war happened in Bosnia. It is not that easy for war to happen but is not that hard also. Propaganda and money can do miracles. And you don't need to have full scale war, one broken head would be too much. Protests, fighting, maybe even some small terrorist attacks... So, my advice is to calm down and love you brothers ✌️ |
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Post by globe on Jul 3, 2022 2:15:41 GMT -5
Ok we get it. The Scots and Welsh are simply inferior to you amazing English people, we rely on hand outs from our amazing, generous cousins to simply survive. What about NI? Hangers on over there to I guess? You’re plunging this thread in to silliness with suggestions like that. I mean, Irish are nothing like you lot. Apart from the alcoholism that is. The Oirish are god’s people and salt of the earth. And no mistake. Dear me. Your patter is horrific mate. |
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Post by globe on Jul 3, 2022 2:20:59 GMT -5
I see where you are coming from but I really don’t think you can compare the former Yugoslavia to the UK. The social, religious and ethnic differences that causes the break up of the Balkan countries don’t exist here. From 1918 to 1941, between two wars, biggest tensions and conficts were in Macedonia. Almost every Yugoslavian cop was there. And Macedonia was only country that left Yugoslavia in the 90s without war. People in Bosnia loved Yugoslavia more than anyone else. When war broke out in Slovenia in Croatia in 1991, almost everyone in Bosnia were sure that it won't happen in Bosnia. And the bloodiest war happened in Bosnia. It is not that easy for war to happen but is not that hard also. Propaganda and money can do miracles. And you don't need to have full scale war, one broken head would be too much. Protests, fighting, maybe even some small terrorist attacks... So, my advice is to calm down and love you brothers ✌️ We had a referendum on this on 2014. There was no threats of violence, no protests. What actually happened was a brilliant debate and more people, especially young people, becoming more politically aware. You are comparing apples with oranges. We do love our brothers. My wife is English (voted Yes in 2014 and will vote Yes again in 2023), England is a great country with some amazing cities and anytime I go there I am always made to be feel welcomed. This is political separation that is being debated. They want a right-wing, Brexit government, we don’t. So lots of here think it’s time to go our separate ways politically. That’s it. |
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Post by walterglass on Jul 3, 2022 6:32:16 GMT -5
You’re plunging this thread in to silliness with suggestions like that. I mean, Irish are nothing like you lot. Apart from the alcoholism that is. The Oirish are god’s people and salt of the earth. And no mistake. Dear me. Your patter is horrific mate. Stop encouraging me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2022 7:38:21 GMT -5
We do love our brothers. My wife is English (voted Yes in 2014 and will vote Yes again in 2023), England is a great country with some amazing cities and anytime I go there I am always made to be feel welcomed. This is political separation that is being debated. They want a right-wing, Brexit government, we don’t. So lots of here think it’s time to go our separate ways politically. That’s it.
Great post.
Couple of things though - how is wanting Brexit (independence from a larger level of state govt outside of national borders) any different to Scots independence movement (genuine question?)
also, most nationalist movements are traditionally viewed as 'right wing' by their very nature - how is the SNP one different? |
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Post by oasisserbia on Jul 3, 2022 12:44:52 GMT -5
From 1918 to 1941, between two wars, biggest tensions and conficts were in Macedonia. Almost every Yugoslavian cop was there. And Macedonia was only country that left Yugoslavia in the 90s without war. People in Bosnia loved Yugoslavia more than anyone else. When war broke out in Slovenia in Croatia in 1991, almost everyone in Bosnia were sure that it won't happen in Bosnia. And the bloodiest war happened in Bosnia. It is not that easy for war to happen but is not that hard also. Propaganda and money can do miracles. And you don't need to have full scale war, one broken head would be too much. Protests, fighting, maybe even some small terrorist attacks... So, my advice is to calm down and love you brothers ✌️ We had a referendum on this on 2014. There was no threats of violence, no protests. What actually happened was a brilliant debate and more people, especially young people, becoming more politically aware. You are comparing apples with oranges. We do love our brothers. My wife is English (voted Yes in 2014 and will vote Yes again in 2023), England is a great country with some amazing cities and anytime I go there I am always made to be feel welcomed. This is political separation that is being debated. They want a right-wing, Brexit government, we don’t. So lots of here think it’s time to go our separate ways politically. That’s it. That is great to hear. |
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Post by globe on Jul 4, 2022 4:14:47 GMT -5
We do love our brothers. My wife is English (voted Yes in 2014 and will vote Yes again in 2023), England is a great country with some amazing cities and anytime I go there I am always made to be feel welcomed. This is political separation that is being debated. They want a right-wing, Brexit government, we don’t. So lots of here think it’s time to go our separate ways politically. That’s it. Great post.
Couple of things though - how is wanting Brexit (independence from a larger level of state govt outside of national borders) any different to Scots independence movement (genuine question?) also, most nationalist movements are traditionally viewed as 'right wing' by their very nature - how is the SNP one different? I honestly don't see how you can compare the two. When the UK was in the EU, did the EU make UK law or implement policy? Did it block any law that the UK government had voted through Westminster? I am trying to make the point that despite what Farage would tell you, the EU did not rule the UK from Brussels. The EU was is a trading block. Of course you could argue that to be in that trading block you need to agree to the rules and that some people think those rules went to far over the years, but the Westminster is a sovereign parliament and always was during the UKs membership of the EU. Go and do some reading up on the UK's veto. As for the SNP being right wing - look at their polices and what they have implemented here since 2007 and you'll see that they are most definitely not right wing. Bear in mind that if Scotland did leave the UK, it is very much likely the SNP would pretty much cease to exist. Unlike Westminster, Holyrood uses PR, not FPTP and we'd most likely end up with a coalition government of left of centre parties. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 6:52:42 GMT -5
Great post.
Couple of things though - how is wanting Brexit (independence from a larger level of state govt outside of national borders) any different to Scots independence movement (genuine question?) also, most nationalist movements are traditionally viewed as 'right wing' by their very nature - how is the SNP one different? I honestly don't see how you can compare the two. When the UK was in the EU, did the EU make UK law or implement policy? Did it block any law that the UK government had voted through Westminster? I am trying to make the point that despite what Farage would tell you, the EU did not rule the UK from Brussels. The EU was is a trading block. Of course you could argue that to be in that trading block you need to agree to the rules and that some people think those rules went to far over the years, but the Westminster is a sovereign parliament and always was during the UKs membership of the EU. Go and do some reading up on the UK's veto. As for the SNP being right wing - look at their polices and what they have implemented here since 2007 and you'll see that they are most definitely not right wing. Bear in mind that if Scotland did leave the UK, it is very much likely the SNP would pretty much cease to exist. Unlike Westminster, Holyrood uses PR, not FPTP and we'd most likely end up with a coalition government of left of centre parties. your post is a little condescending, 'what farage tells you' and 'go and do some reading'...
"did the EU make UK law or implement policy?" yes. Just a few examples:
The Central bank dictates monetary policy for bloc members (set the inflation targets etc) which devolved bank policies have to abide by. 'Bailing out' failing firms is against EU law (although other countries ingore it), one of the reasons that China now supplies our steel.
There are plenty of examples from GDPR, manufacturing standards, agricultural and environmental practises etc. Far to many to go into. I suggest you do some reading 
"The EU was is a trading block" betrays you naivety and lack of understanding. The 'common market' was a trading block, the EU is a continent-level federal government, as it has always been intended to be.
The 'right wing' comment was not based on SNP policy (although some might say various things like the 'hate speech in the home' legislation could well fall under that interpretation) - I was merely pointing out that in most other cases (brexit being but one example) any appeal to 'nationalism' is usually seen as 'right wing' and divisive in so much as it sets out an 'other' that is beyond 'home' borders.
I am a supporter of devolved govt - not quite as far as a local soviet but certainly not a continent-wide unelected ruling commission body that tries to apply a 'one size fits all' raft of policies.
If the ideal is somewhere between the tow I guess it depends how 'local' it should be.
At the moment 'England' is governed by a parliament that has a substantial number of SNP members. The party currently has a far bigger share that the traditional 'third party' LibDems and could easily be in a postion to form an alliance govt with Lab in the future.
If 'independence' is gained, the SNP most certainly won't disappear - they'll rebrand and Scotland will effectively be a one party state.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Jul 4, 2022 8:34:15 GMT -5
Why would Scotland not want to take its chances outside this fucking shithole union governed by a load of Etonian wankers?
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Post by globe on Jul 4, 2022 9:51:02 GMT -5
I honestly don't see how you can compare the two. When the UK was in the EU, did the EU make UK law or implement policy? Did it block any law that the UK government had voted through Westminster? I am trying to make the point that despite what Farage would tell you, the EU did not rule the UK from Brussels. The EU was is a trading block. Of course you could argue that to be in that trading block you need to agree to the rules and that some people think those rules went to far over the years, but the Westminster is a sovereign parliament and always was during the UKs membership of the EU. Go and do some reading up on the UK's veto. As for the SNP being right wing - look at their polices and what they have implemented here since 2007 and you'll see that they are most definitely not right wing. Bear in mind that if Scotland did leave the UK, it is very much likely the SNP would pretty much cease to exist. Unlike Westminster, Holyrood uses PR, not FPTP and we'd most likely end up with a coalition government of left of centre parties. your post is a little condescending, 'what farage tells you' and 'go and do some reading'...
"did the EU make UK law or implement policy?" yes. Just a few examples:
The Central bank dictates monetary policy for bloc members (set the inflation targets etc) which devolved bank policies have to abide by. 'Bailing out' failing firms is against EU law (although other countries ingore it), one of the reasons that China now supplies our steel. There are plenty of examples from GDPR, manufacturing standards, agricultural and environmental practises etc. Far to many to go into. I suggest you do some reading "The EU was is a trading block" betrays you naivety and lack of understanding. The 'common market' was a trading block, the EU is a continent-level federal government, as it has always been intended to be.
The 'right wing' comment was not based on SNP policy (although some might say various things like the 'hate speech in the home' legislation could well fall under that interpretation) - I was merely pointing out that in most other cases (brexit being but one example) any appeal to 'nationalism' is usually seen as 'right wing' and divisive in so much as it sets out an 'other' that is beyond 'home' borders.
I am a supporter of devolved govt - not quite as far as a local soviet but certainly not a continent-wide unelected ruling commission body that tries to apply a 'one size fits all' raft of policies. If the ideal is somewhere between the tow I guess it depends how 'local' it should be. At the moment 'England' is governed by a parliament that has a substantial number of SNP members. The party currently has a far bigger share that the traditional 'third party' LibDems and could easily be in a postion to form an alliance govt with Lab in the future.
If 'independence' is gained, the SNP most certainly won't disappear - they'll rebrand and Scotland will effectively be a one party state.
A one party state like England is under the Conservative party you mean? How many years have they been in power in the last 100 years? Re the EU, I was not meaning to sound condescending , I thought you were asking me a question and I tried to answer it the best I can, I guess we’ll need to agree to disagree on those things you mentioned meaning the UK was not an independent country. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 9:56:02 GMT -5
Why would Scotland not want to take its chances outside this fucking shithole union governed by a load of Etonian wankers?
Well, Gove is a Scot...
and in the past Blair & Brown were too... Salmond went to St Andrews, which isn't exactly a jumped up Tech college.
And if every time a national govt was elected that more than half the population didn't agree with and a secession followed, we'd be down to being run by the loudest person in our own street by now
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 10:17:20 GMT -5
A one party state like England is under the Conservative party you mean? How many years have they been in power in the last 100 years? Re the EU, I was not meaning to sound condescending , I thought you were asking me a question and I tried to answer it the best I can, I guess we’ll need to agree to disagree on those things you mentioned meaning the UK was not an independent country. looks like 63 of the years 1922-2022, although the cameron/clegg coalition should really make it 57, which isn't really a one party state in anyone's book is it? 
b - Fair play
c - Agreeing to disagree is really the basis for accepting democratic elections really isn't it, so I'm with you on that!
Just to be clear, I think that an EU member state is independent in the same way a US state is - it can pass own laws but under a great over-arching framework which does indeed restrict its freedom to do so and therefore effectively its 'sovereignty', because by definition a 'sovereign' state answers to none other in those ways.
I think that devolution has led to Scotland effectively being in that position now - setting personal tax levels, different rules for NHS, benefits, education etc and probably many I'm not aware of (I've haven't been for some time)...
I just don't see how getting away from Westminster (where Scots MPs do have a say) and jumping into the EU (where little or no real effective representation will exist being a very small part of a much bigger club that the UK) can in any way be making a positive difference to be truly 'independent'.
That's where the, for want of a better word, the racist against the english aspect of it comes into view for me as a powerful undercurrent, which is precisely how a nationalist movement gets a 'right wing' tag.
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Post by globe on Jul 4, 2022 11:47:44 GMT -5
A one party state like England is under the Conservative party you mean? How many years have they been in power in the last 100 years? Re the EU, I was not meaning to sound condescending , I thought you were asking me a question and I tried to answer it the best I can, I guess we’ll need to agree to disagree on those things you mentioned meaning the UK was not an independent country. looks like 63 of the years 1922-2022, although the cameron/clegg coalition should really make it 57, which isn't really a one party state in anyone's book is it? b - Fair play c - Agreeing to disagree is really the basis for accepting democratic elections really isn't it, so I'm with you on that! Just to be clear, I think that an EU member state is independent in the same way a US state is - it can pass own laws but under a great over-arching framework which does indeed restrict its freedom to do so and therefore effectively its 'sovereignty', because by definition a 'sovereign' state answers to none other in those ways.
I think that devolution has led to Scotland effectively being in that position now - setting personal tax levels, different rules for NHS, benefits, education etc and probably many I'm not aware of (I've haven't been for some time)... I just don't see how getting away from Westminster (where Scots MPs do have a say) and jumping into the EU (where little or no real effective representation will exist being a very small part of a much bigger club that the UK) can in any way be making a positive difference to be truly 'independent'.
That's where the, for want of a better word, the racist against the english aspect of it comes into view for me as a powerful undercurrent, which is precisely how a nationalist movement gets a 'right wing' tag.
Your last point re racist undercurrent - where are you actually getting that from? I’m guessing you are English, right? Have you ever been to Scotland? Were you racially abused for being English when you were here? There are thousands of English (and Welsh) people who now live in Scotland who are part of the independence movement (my wife included). Was there a racist undertone to the majority of people in England voting to leave the EU? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2022 17:49:29 GMT -5
looks like 63 of the years 1922-2022, although the cameron/clegg coalition should really make it 57, which isn't really a one party state in anyone's book is it?  b - Fair play  c - Agreeing to disagree is really the basis for accepting democratic elections really isn't it, so I'm with you on that! Just to be clear, I think that an EU member state is independent in the same way a US state is - it can pass own laws but under a great over-arching framework which does indeed restrict its freedom to do so and therefore effectively its 'sovereignty', because by definition a 'sovereign' state answers to none other in those ways.
I think that devolution has led to Scotland effectively being in that position now - setting personal tax levels, different rules for NHS, benefits, education etc and probably many I'm not aware of (I've haven't been for some time)... I just don't see how getting away from Westminster (where Scots MPs do have a say) and jumping into the EU (where little or no real effective representation will exist being a very small part of a much bigger club that the UK) can in any way be making a positive difference to be truly 'independent'.
That's where the, for want of a better word, the racist against the english aspect of it comes into view for me as a powerful undercurrent, which is precisely how a nationalist movement gets a 'right wing' tag.
Your last point re racist undercurrent - where are you actually getting that from? I’m guessing you are English, right? Have you ever been to Scotland? Were you racially abused for being English when you were here? There are thousands of English (and Welsh) people who now live in Scotland who are part of the independence movement (my wife included). Was there a racist undertone to the majority of people in England voting to leave the EU? There were plenty of accusations of racism re the Brexit vote, and I'm sure a small minority would probably fall into that bracket. In the same way, many socialists and left-leaning people voted for Brexit in the footsteps of names like Tony Benn, Bob Crowe and of course Corbyn.
The only reason the 'red wall' seats went to Boris in the last election was down to labour voters wanting brexit. If corbyn had stuck to his long held beliefs he would have been prime minister to this day probably.
But if you don't think there's an anti-English element to this indy debate you are either not being honest or are closing your eyes to stark realities.
I have indeed spent a great deal of time in Scotland, although never lived there.
When I was much younger I was at my (scots) girlfriend's family home in semi-rural west scotland. I was in the front room with her dad when the SNP bloke came round for the months subs or something. got introduced (not as being from down south) and didn't say much, but had a wonderful half hour watching her dad squirm as the SNP bloke was out and out racist about the English (as he was no doubt every visit) and her dad couldn't join in (as he no doubt did usually).
I've got loads of funny stories about being at the butt of 'racism' from the Scots, but I think it's pretty funny all in all, water off a duck's back and all that.
What i don't like to think is that similar attitudes will be a cause for even a very small minority to swing a vote that chucks away centuries of co-operation between people who, in my view, are actually all from the same country.
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