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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 26, 2011 12:42:20 GMT -5
When learning to write (namely creatively), I was taught it's best to "show" rather than to "tell". Meaning, to lay out descriptions and get people to actually see what your writing by invoking the senses and emotions.
To me, as I think about this concept now, this is exactly the difference between Noel's lyrics and those of LAG.
LAG are so simplistic, they just merely tell what's going on. The listener is disconnected, there is no story, and there's certainly a lack of emotional connection.
Contrast that with Noel who paints a story, and draws the listener in. We see this not only in TDOYAM, but it's also evident in songs like POTQ, TIOBI, etc. Even in songs like DLBIA where he sings "Step outside, summertime's in bloom" invoke solid imagery.
On top of that, Noel also knows how to structure a song and adds musical merit. Won't go into that here, because this is mainly about the lyrics. All that being said, I like BDI for what they are. But Noel is the better musician.
His subject matter has a sense of story telling honesty that people can relate to. Simple in its own right, he's no Morrissey, but very effective nonetheless.
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Post by bonkers on Jul 26, 2011 12:44:30 GMT -5
i need a large JD and Coke!!  |
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Post by deasy on Jul 26, 2011 12:46:06 GMT -5
i need a large JD and Coke!! Fuck the coke, you pansy!! |
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Post by bonkers on Jul 26, 2011 12:48:17 GMT -5
i need a large JD and Coke!! Fuck the coke, you pansy!! ooohhhhh you little minx!!!! i like coke with my JD just like i like chocolate body paint with your sister ;D |
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Post by eva Fawkes on Jul 26, 2011 12:49:38 GMT -5
'show don't tell', first rule of writing.
good points, NL4E but you're obviously feeling neglected or something. you a little attention seeking fucker.
fucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by LlAM on Jul 26, 2011 12:50:58 GMT -5
I hate NL4E with a passion.
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Post by deasy on Jul 26, 2011 12:52:19 GMT -5
Fuck the coke, you pansy!! ooohhhhh you little minx!!!! i like coke with my JD just like i like chocolate body paint with your sister ;D I have no sister!!!! ;D |
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Post by bwilder on Jul 26, 2011 12:53:40 GMT -5
When learning to write (namely creatively), I was taught it's best to "show" rather than to "tell". Meaning, to lay out descriptions and get people to actually see what your writing by invoking the senses and emotions. To me, as I think about this concept now, this is exactly the difference between Noel's lyrics and those of LAG. LAG are so simplistic, they just merely tell what's going on. The listener is disconnected, there is no story, and there's certainly a lack of emotional connection. Contrast that with Noel who paints a story, and draws the listener in. We see this not only in TDOYAM, but it's also evident in songs like POTQ, TIOBI, etc. Even in songs like DLBIA where he sings "Step outside, summertime's in bloom" invoke solid imagery. On top of that, Noel also knows how to structure a song and adds musical merit. Won't go into that here, because this is mainly about the lyrics. All that being said, I like BDI for what they are. But Noel is the better musician. His subject matter has a sense of story telling honesty that people can relate to. Simple in its own right, he's no Morrissey, but very effective nonetheless. You could be slagged off for sounding a bit high brow but you are correct, nonetheless. |
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Post by bonkers on Jul 26, 2011 12:56:59 GMT -5
ooohhhhh you little minx!!!! i like coke with my JD just like i like chocolate body paint with your sister ;D I have no sister!!!! ;D then your mum looks young for her age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D |
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Post by eva Fawkes on Jul 26, 2011 12:58:59 GMT -5
When learning to write (namely creatively), I was taught it's best to "show" rather than to "tell". Meaning, to lay out descriptions and get people to actually see what your writing by invoking the senses and emotions. To me, as I think about this concept now, this is exactly the difference between Noel's lyrics and those of LAG. LAG are so simplistic, they just merely tell what's going on. The listener is disconnected, there is no story, and there's certainly a lack of emotional connection. Contrast that with Noel who paints a story, and draws the listener in. We see this not only in TDOYAM, but it's also evident in songs like POTQ, TIOBI, etc. Even in songs like DLBIA where he sings "Step outside, summertime's in bloom" invoke solid imagery. On top of that, Noel also knows how to structure a song and adds musical merit. Won't go into that here, because this is mainly about the lyrics. All that being said, I like BDI for what they are. But Noel is the better musician. His subject matter has a sense of story telling honesty that people can relate to. Simple in its own right, he's no Morrissey, but very effective nonetheless. You could be slagged off for sounding a bit high brow but you are correct, nonetheless. he likes to make threads like this once in a while to prove he's not ignorant, or at least not ignorant in some ways. that and he lacks self-esteem much like women. you know i love you, NL4E, at least sometimes. fucker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 12:59:57 GMT -5
When learning to write (namely creatively), I was taught it's best to "show" rather than to "tell". Meaning, to lay out descriptions and get people to actually see what your writing by invoking the senses and emotions. ....... Noel who paints a story, and draws the listener in. We see this not only in TDOYAM, but it's also evident in songs like POTQ, TIOBI, etc. Even in songs like DLBIA where he sings "Step outside, summertime's in bloom" invoke solid imagery. I appreciate the subject of this thread, and you're right in that golden rule of writing. But I have to disagree with your assertion that Noel is good at following that rule. Looking over the lyrics to all the songs you mentioned, I see it is as just the opposite - he's damn near ALWAYS "telling" instead of "showing." Take the lyric you mentioned. "Step outside, the summertime's in bloom." You say that invokes solid imagery, but I ask, does it really? If I had a student turn that in, my immediate response would be "Don't TELL me summertime's in bloom - SHOW me!" Give me concrete, specific details. Describe the vivid colors of the sky, grass, trees, flowers. Describe the thickness of the humid air. The sound of bugs buzzing. The smell of someone cooking steak on the grill next door. THAT'S solid imagery. THAT'S how you "show" and not "tell." Admittedly, there isn't always that much room in a pop song to go into that kind of lyrical detail. So I'm not saying I think Noel (or BDI) should have to do all that. I just object to giving Noel credit for something he clearly doesn't do. |
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Post by eva Fawkes on Jul 26, 2011 13:06:17 GMT -5
hold the phones, NL4E was wrong.
up is now down, left is right. what. the. fuck?
there's a new smart guy in town, you better step your game, NL4E.
fucker!!!!!!!!!
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Post by thedon on Jul 26, 2011 13:06:19 GMT -5
I've honestly never even considered any of Noel's lyrics. They're just words. He's said himself there's rarely much meaning to them.
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Post by deasy on Jul 26, 2011 13:07:55 GMT -5
then your mum looks young for her age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D I am going to take that as a compliment to my family ;D |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:10:00 GMT -5
I've honestly never even considered any of Noel's lyrics. They're just words. He's said himself there's rarely much meaning to them. This! Noel is a guy that wrote a ton of really catchy pop melodies in the mid 90s. And the occasional one since. But as NL4E himself admitted, he's no Morrisey (or Dylan or Springsteen while we're at it). So looking to him as an example for proper lyric writing is really barking up the wrong tree. |
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dion
Oasis Roadie
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Post by dion on Jul 26, 2011 13:13:02 GMT -5
"Picture yourself in a boat on a river," - telling or showing?
"With tangerine trees and marmalade skies." - telling you the colours right?
"Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,"
"A girl with kaleidoscope eyes." - telling you she has kaleidoscope eyes again yeah? Rather than describing how her eyes look.
Or is he showing you, I always feel I can see it when I hear that?
The fact of the matter is it's both, showing is just telling done well enough that you can picture it in your head.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 26, 2011 13:18:19 GMT -5
When learning to write (namely creatively), I was taught it's best to "show" rather than to "tell". Meaning, to lay out descriptions and get people to actually see what your writing by invoking the senses and emotions. ....... Noel who paints a story, and draws the listener in. We see this not only in TDOYAM, but it's also evident in songs like POTQ, TIOBI, etc. Even in songs like DLBIA where he sings "Step outside, summertime's in bloom" invoke solid imagery. I appreciate the subject of this thread, and you're right in that golden rule of writing. But I have to disagree with your assertion that Noel is good at following that rule. Looking over the lyrics to all the songs you mentioned, I see it is as just the opposite - he's damn near ALWAYS "telling" instead of "showing." Take the lyric you mentioned. "Step outside, the summertime's in bloom." You say that invokes solid imagery, but I ask, does it really? If I had a student turn that in, my immediate response would be "Don't TELL me summertime's in bloom - SHOW me!" Give me concrete, specific details. Describe the vivid colors of the sky, grass, trees, flowers. Describe the thickness of the humid air. The sound of bugs buzzing. The smell of someone cooking steak on the grill next door. THAT'S solid imagery. THAT'S how you "show" and not "tell." Admittedly, there isn't always that much room in a pop song to go into that kind of lyrical detail. So I'm not saying I think Noel (or BDI) should have to do all that. I just object to giving Noel credit for something he clearly doesn't do. I agree. He wouldn't be "showing" if this was a short story. But due to the limited space he has, as you have rightly pointed out, it's basically all he has room for. "Summertime was in bloom with the sweet smell of freshly cut grass infusing up to the stuffy nostrils of the children who were seen running innocently in the yard as beads of sweat dripped from their foreheads as the summer sun cast a devilish glow." [Ignore the run on]. That would be showing. But he doesn't exactly have room for that. |
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Post by northernsky on Jul 26, 2011 13:18:52 GMT -5
"Picture yourself in a boat on a river," - telling or showing? "With tangerine trees and marmalade skies." - telling you the colours right? "Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly," "A girl with kaleidoscope eyes." - telling you she has kaleidoscope eyes again yeah? Rather than describing how her eyes look. Or is he showing you, I always feel I can see it when I hear that? The fact of the matter is it's both, showing is just telling done well enough that you can picture it in your head. Well sure, technically ANY lyric is "telling" something. You can't LITERALLY "show" someone anything with words. What people mean by "showing" is being descriptive enough that it forms a concrete image in the mind of the listener. These lyrics succeed in "showing" because Lennon is cleverly descriptive, using comparisons we're all familiar with (the color of a tangerine for example) to describe the objects that would otherwise be bland and commonplace (trees, sky, eyes.) So really the old saying should be "show WHILE telling." |
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Post by bonkers on Jul 26, 2011 13:21:59 GMT -5
i think the poll i just made is even more relevant now
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Post by shoes222 on Jul 26, 2011 13:22:56 GMT -5
I think Noel was descriptive with showing all over the place on SOTSOG (think Gas Panic), and most of his songs on DOYS. I'd go and look up a bunch of examples enough but I am far too lazy for that and don't care enough about this stupid argument.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 13:23:07 GMT -5
The beauty about Noels lyrics are that they could mean so many different things, everybody gets a different sense of meaning from his songs
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 26, 2011 13:25:48 GMT -5
I think Noel was descriptive with showing all over the place on SOTSOG (think Gas Panic), and most of his songs on DOYS. . This. What tongueless ghost of sin crept through my curtains? Sailing on a sea of sweat on a stormy night Brilliant. |
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Post by eva Fawkes on Jul 26, 2011 13:28:15 GMT -5
ok, calm down.
this isn't school.
it's an Oasis-related forum, whilst interesting i think all points have been made.
fuckers!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by bonkers on Jul 26, 2011 13:32:17 GMT -5
ok, calm down. this isn't school. it's an Oasis-related forum, whilst interesting i think all points have been made. fuckers!!!!!!!!!!! right on brother!!!! ;D |
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dion
Oasis Roadie
Posts: 362
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Post by dion on Jul 26, 2011 13:32:50 GMT -5
"Picture yourself in a boat on a river," - telling or showing? "With tangerine trees and marmalade skies." - telling you the colours right? "Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly," "A girl with kaleidoscope eyes." - telling you she has kaleidoscope eyes again yeah? Rather than describing how her eyes look. Or is he showing you, I always feel I can see it when I hear that? The fact of the matter is it's both, showing is just telling done well enough that you can picture it in your head. Well sure, technically ANY lyric is "telling" something. You can't LITERALLY "show" someone anything with words. What people mean by "showing" is being descriptive enough that it forms a concrete image in the mind of the listener. These lyrics succeed in "showing" because Lennon is cleverly descriptive, using comparisons we're all familiar with (the color of a tangerine for example) to describe the objects that would otherwise be bland and commonplace (trees, sky, eyes.) So really the old saying should be "show WHILE telling." Showing as as much about not telling as it is telling, with a medium like words you need the mind to do most of the work. It's not that Lennon describes everything, or even much of it. Liam isn't actually bad at this, look at "I'm Outta Time", probably his most Lennon-esq moment; "Here's a song, it reminds me of when we were young, looking back at all the things we've done". Thats "showing" and he "shows" you by telling you what it means to him. Lyrically is the only time Liam gets close to Noels song writing personally. |
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