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Nov 21, 2014 20:56:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 20:56:07 GMT -5
Im a bit confused , you say rings matter when comparing players , but acknowledge celtics with Russell ,Cousy only had to win 7 games  I don't think bob cousy is better than magic or isah because he played when you only had to win conference to make finals ? Some players just fall into rings like robert horry . Look at football should really great players be penalized in all time stature cause they played in 70 s when steelers were a dynasty ? Or 60 s when packs dominated ? Take staubach no steelers he has 4 rings ,he played well in those games should he be put under another qb who gets more or as many. Does eli manning rank with roger staubach because he won 2 as well Not in my book I think you take individuals SEPERATE from teams because eras are different take hockey if you were great in 80 s but not on islanders or Edmonton you didn't win a cup unless you plsyed for MONTREAL and Calgary who won 1 each in that decAde , isles and oulers won the rest , you can't judge great plsyers with rings imo , because to many eras had dynasty's Edit. Im confused Sternumman in the point ......are U agreeing about titles not mattering or not ? It's a tough call eirher way I think they matter. Malone, Barkley, Webber all great forwards but Duncan has 5 rings. It's a team accomplishment but great players win championships. You have to be the number one or two guy for them to matter. Horry has more rings than Jordan but nobody is going to debate who is better. In the NFL Eli has more rings then Peyton but nobody would argue he's better than big brother. However compare Peyton to Brady. Peyton might be the best passer to ever play the game but Brady won more big games than Peyton. I think in basketballs hey mean more ....but again it's tough. I mean if wilt played on Boston with that supporting cast and team concept Would Russell have won so much if he was on lakers I don't think so. The one time wilt had a supporting cast in philly he won , I see your point , but it's like chicken / egg ,,, I mean I do t think wilt would have won any less than Russell did if he was on Boston instead of Russell. Yet russell is greatest winner , I'll still take wilt with first pick between them though. Tough debate really |
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Nov 21, 2014 21:36:04 GMT -5
Post by sgtpeppr on Nov 21, 2014 21:36:04 GMT -5
so what about dominique, barkley, ewing, stockton & malone?
and pippen was the 2nd player on that bulls team so hes better than the majority of all other players?
no one will argue horry over MJ, but the fact hes got 7 must mean theres an argument for him over alot of other 'greats', if rings matter that much?
or is it just sometimes they matter and other times not? and who decides?
the game is full of so many stats its hard to disregard them all for rings alone...
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Nov 21, 2014 23:00:36 GMT -5
Post by Lennon2217 on Nov 21, 2014 23:00:36 GMT -5
Is LeBron off the steroids?
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 22, 2014 7:23:31 GMT -5
so what about dominique, barkley, ewing, stockton & malone? All great players. Not saying they arent all time greats because they didnt win. They all lost to MJ along the way. Winning elevates legacy. Jordan for most people was the best basketball player we ever saw but if he didnt win ever he'd be viewed different. As Herm Edward said.  He's arguably the third best small forward of all time after Lebron and Bird. Horry is a role player who happaned to land on winning teams. Did he help those teams win? Yes but he's a role player like Kerr or Hodges. He's not an all time great. Wont make the HOF. He was a good role player that hit some timely shots. Nobody decides. It's all subjective. Thats why sports are fun to debate. |
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Post by sgtpeppr on Nov 22, 2014 8:32:36 GMT -5
so what about dominique, barkley, ewing, stockton & malone? All great players. Not saying they arent all time greats because they didnt win. They all lost to MJ along the way. Winning elevates legacy. Jordan for most people was the best basketball player we ever saw but if he didnt win ever he'd be viewed different. As Herm Edward said. He's arguably the third best small forward of all time after Lebron and Bird. Horry is a role player who happaned to land on winning teams. Did he help those teams win? Yes but he's a role player like Kerr or Hodges. He's not an all time great. Wont make the HOF. He was a good role player that hit some timely shots. Nobody decides. It's all subjective. Thats why sports are fun to debate. at least we agree on the important part... interesting point about MJ if he hadnt won any rings. would we look at him different? im trying to decide now. what if he only won two? how different would we see him? i dont know... but pippen has plenty more rings than bird, tho youll be hard pressed to find someone who rates him higher. and yet hes still only 3rd best SF in history (which is already debatable as you said)? are the rings what pushed him up to top3? in the end, i find the whole rings>greatness argument is only ever really used when comparing players to MJ. because you cant compare to the GOAT... |
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Nov 22, 2014 9:01:35 GMT -5
Post by Let It Bleed on Nov 22, 2014 9:01:35 GMT -5
MVP Awards are also a guage for players greatness....it is a regular season award.
Dunno exactly how many Jordan won. but, on sports shows they always talk about how the MVP award could've been given to Jordan every year, though.
God bless.
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 22, 2014 9:58:09 GMT -5
Is LeBron off the steroids?  |
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Nov 22, 2014 10:04:41 GMT -5
Post by Sternumman on Nov 22, 2014 10:04:41 GMT -5
MVP Awards are also a guage for players greatness....it is a regular season award. Dunno exactly how many Jordan won. but, on sports shows they always talk about how the MVP award could've been given to Jordan every year, though. God bless. He won 5 but should have won 7. Because of voters fatigue Malone and Barkley each eon one. Same thing happened to LeBron the year Rose won his. |
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Nov 22, 2014 10:10:21 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 10:10:21 GMT -5
All great players. Not saying they arent all time greats because they didnt win. They all lost to MJ along the way. Winning elevates legacy. Jordan for most people was the best basketball player we ever saw but if he didnt win ever he'd be viewed different. As Herm Edward said. He's arguably the third best small forward of all time after Lebron and Bird. Horry is a role player who happaned to land on winning teams. Did he help those teams win? Yes but he's a role player like Kerr or Hodges. He's not an all time great. Wont make the HOF. He was a good role player that hit some timely shots. Nobody decides. It's all subjective. Thats why sports are fun to debate. at least we agree on the important part... interesting point about MJ if he hadnt won any rings. would we look at him different? im trying to decide now. what if he only won two? how different would we see him? i dont know... I think I can answer this. YES. WE WOULD LOOK AT HIM DIFFERENT. Look. Wilt chamberlain has scoring numbers that dwarf JORDAN ( no pun ) Wilt was the scariest offensive machine in history , scored 100 points in a game his season averages were ridiculous sling with his rebounds and he could PASS. ....... but he's not looked on as greatest ever by most because he only has 2 rings ,,, If MJ. Imo won say 3 rings or 4 he would be in every argument but some will already be Lebron wirh 2 is as good and has time to tie or pass , some will say Larry with 3 was better or Magic with 5 ...,,JORDAN by winning 3 in a row twice stamped himself as the second greatest winner behind Russell and since he p,ayed in a modern era where the world knows him he is considered the best ever , because he never lost a final was the best in sports, will was all that 2 decades earlier and was a nightmare to cover and scored more than MJ. Rebounded more than MJ and hiss assists are there , Yet MJ is best. Why The rings ,, in NBA they do matter |
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Nov 22, 2014 10:19:01 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 10:19:01 GMT -5
sgtpepper you made a great point about rings , why I go by " eye test". Im 49 I've seen most even wilt in 71--73. Missed russell , so no rings just talent. From someone who saw them all that we talk about ..my opinion only. Plsyers I've seen 1st team Wilt - center Hakeem - power forward ( I know a center but twin towers are allowed ) Lebron sf MJ shooting guard Magic - point Second team Lew alcindor - center Karl Malone - power forward Larry bird - sf Jerry west so ( look at the mans stats and I saw him there is a reason he is the NBA logo ) Issas Thomas - point I did not see OSCAR or russell I did see OSCAR but he was a shell wilt was still a force The rest Dominique , dr j, Stockton , ECT ECT ect all unreal O me those 10 stood out
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Nov 22, 2014 22:23:45 GMT -5
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 22, 2014 22:23:45 GMT -5
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Nov 22, 2014 22:27:42 GMT -5
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 22, 2014 22:27:42 GMT -5
sgtpepper you made a great point about rings , why I go by " eye test". Im 49 I've seen most even wilt in 71--73. Missed russell , so no rings just talent. From someone who saw them all that we talk about ..my opinion only. Plsyers I've seen 1st team Wilt - center Hakeem - power forward ( I know a center but twin towers are allowed ) Lebron sf MJ shooting guard Magic - point Second team Lew alcindor - center Karl Malone - power forward Larry bird - sf Jerry west so ( look at the mans stats and I saw him there is a reason he is the NBA logo ) Issas Thomas - point I did not see OSCAR or russell I did see OSCAR but he was a shell wilt was still a force The rest Dominique , dr j, Stockton , ECT ECT ect all unreal O me those 10 stood out |
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Nov 22, 2014 22:34:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 22:34:38 GMT -5
sgtpepper you made a great point about rings , why I go by " eye test". Im 49 I've seen most even wilt in 71--73. Missed russell , so no rings just talent. From someone who saw them all that we talk about ..my opinion only. Plsyers I've seen 1st team Wilt - center Hakeem - power forward ( I know a center but twin towers are allowed ) Lebron sf MJ shooting guard Magic - point Second team Lew alcindor - center Karl Malone - power forward Larry bird - sf Jerry west so ( look at the mans stats and I saw him there is a reason he is the NBA logo ) Issas Thomas - point I did not see OSCAR or russell I did see OSCAR but he was a shell wilt was still a force The rest Dominique , dr j, Stockton , ECT ECT ect all unreal O me those 10 stood out Did that for you  . |
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Nov 22, 2014 23:29:20 GMT -5
Post by sgtpeppr on Nov 22, 2014 23:29:20 GMT -5
sgtpepper you made a great point about rings , why I go by " eye test". Im 49 I've seen most even wilt in 71--73. Missed russell , so no rings just talent. From someone who saw them all that we talk about ..my opinion only. Plsyers I've seen 1st team Wilt - center Hakeem - power forward ( I know a center but twin towers are allowed ) Lebron sf MJ shooting guard Magic - point Second team Lew alcindor - center Karl Malone - power forward Larry bird - sf Jerry west so ( look at the mans stats and I saw him there is a reason he is the NBA logo ) Issas Thomas - point I did not see OSCAR or russell I did see OSCAR but he was a shell wilt was still a force The rest Dominique , dr j, Stockton , ECT ECT ect all unreal O me those 10 stood out having hakeem as a forward is a bit of a cheat. its not as tho he played as a forward sometimes. hes an out and out center. other than that, those are two pretty good teams. mine would be a mix of the two. C - wilt PF - duncan (or maybe dirk) SF - bird SG - MJ PG - magic 2nd team: C - kareem PF - malone SF - lebron SG - oscar PG - stockton could make up teams all day i guess... |
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Nov 23, 2014 7:36:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 7:36:49 GMT -5
sgtpepper you made a great point about rings , why I go by " eye test". Im 49 I've seen most even wilt in 71--73. Missed russell , so no rings just talent. From someone who saw them all that we talk about ..my opinion only. Plsyers I've seen 1st team Wilt - center Hakeem - power forward ( I know a center but twin towers are allowed ) Lebron sf MJ shooting guard Magic - point Second team Lew alcindor - center Karl Malone - power forward Larry bird - sf Jerry west so ( look at the mans stats and I saw him there is a reason he is the NBA logo ) Issas Thomas - point I did not see OSCAR or russell I did see OSCAR but he was a shell wilt was still a force The rest Dominique , dr j, Stockton , ECT ECT ect all unreal O me those 10 stood out having hakeem as a forward is a bit of a cheat. its not as tho he played as a forward sometimes. hes an out and out center. other than that, those are two pretty good teams. mine would be a mix of the two. C - wilt PF - duncan (or maybe dirk) SF - bird SG - MJ PG - magic 2nd team: C - kareem PF - malone SF - lebron SG - oscar PG - stockton could make up teams all day i guess... Oh I know But as I said I reserve the right for a twin tower unit and really positions are bogus Hakeem and wilt could easily play in back on d and both were so different offensively it would not hurt ...however if you want to go by book. wilt would go on first team Hakeem on second , , Kareem ( lew ) would be out. and Tim Duncan would be my second team power forward. And btw i don't know your age But of you seen OSCAR in prime your older than i ...so your is a bit of a cheat as well , I did go by players i seen  Good list as well wouldn't go to many more , some may argue Kareem , Stockton , ect ect. But those 2 lists pretty well cover it imo |
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Nov 23, 2014 8:12:23 GMT -5
Post by Sternumman on Nov 23, 2014 8:12:23 GMT -5
It's too difficult to compare eras. I hope in the future when time machines are invented they are only used to transport basketball players in their prime and have them play against each other. The stats the players put up back in the 60's and 70's are so inflated.
Kobe is considered the biggest ball hog and chucker of this generation. the most fga he's averaged is 27.2 Wilt averaged more than that six times and in one season took 39.5 shots a game. Thats a thousand shots more in one season. Thats over 100 shots more than Lebron and Durrant took last season COMBINED.
In the 58-59 season the Celtics took 8116 shots on .395%shooting and gave up 109.9 pts a game.
Last years Heat team for comparison took 6272 shots on ..501% shooting and gave up 97.4 pts a game.
Of course the old players scored more points had more assists and rebounds. They played no defense and missed more shots. Bill Russell was a center and never averaged more than .467% from the field in his 13 year career.
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Nov 24, 2014 0:20:33 GMT -5
Post by sgtpeppr on Nov 24, 2014 0:20:33 GMT -5
sorry, didnt realise you were listing players youd seen. do you mean seen live/in person? if so, then thats an impressive list... and yeah, you could play hakeem & wilt as your front court and it would probably work. was more about the fact that the dream never played as a forward to set precedent for the pick. e.g. id have no problem with a duncan/dirk C/PF pairing since both have played those positions. |
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Nov 24, 2014 9:33:21 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 9:33:21 GMT -5
sorry, didnt realise you were listing players youd seen. do you mean seen live/in person? if so, then thats an impressive list... and yeah, you could play hakeem & wilt as your front court and it would probably work. was more about the fact that the dream never played as a forward to set precedent for the pick. e.g. id have no problem with a duncan/dirk C/PF pairing since both have played those positions. No prob mate !!! Yea I was listing players I saw play live at MSG. And on TV. I saw OSCAR but he was shot. So I lusted the best i ever saw with my eyes , Your list would work as well .. And honest.y I shouldn't have omitted duncan. He belongs on my squad |
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Nov 25, 2014 19:46:11 GMT -5
Post by Let It Bleed on Nov 25, 2014 19:46:11 GMT -5
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 25, 2014 20:13:06 GMT -5
Im the biggest Wade defender there is but he shouldnt be on that list. He started the year off great but has missed the last seven in a row. |
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Nov 25, 2014 20:41:03 GMT -5
Post by Let It Bleed on Nov 25, 2014 20:41:03 GMT -5
Im the biggest Wade defender there is but he shouldnt be on that list. He started the year off great but has missed the last seven in a row. Can we at least agree that Milky Way Midnight Dark candy bars are the best candy bars on the market right now? Let's discuss the current all NBA starting line-up; the all-time starting line-up has been discussed lately. I would have: Chris Paul at PG move Stephen Curry to SG Klay Thompson at G/F Lebron James at PF move Anthony Davis to C. I can't have any one on my squad that can't shoot, like that doofus Dwight Howard. Somewhat side note: Steve Kerr was a guest on The Herd with Colin Cowherd the other day and he said that he and Stephen Curry have a shooting contest after practice once a week, and in that time, Steve Kerr said he's only missed one shot and has never beaten Stephen Curry. God bless. |
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Nov 26, 2014 9:34:24 GMT -5
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 26, 2014 9:34:24 GMT -5
Steph Curry murdered the Heat last night.
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Post by Sternumman on Nov 26, 2014 9:54:25 GMT -5
Im the biggest Wade defender there is but he shouldnt be on that list. He started the year off great but has missed the last seven in a row. Can we at least agree that Milky Way Midnight Dark candy bars are the best candy bars on the market right now? Let's discuss the current all NBA starting line-up; the all-time starting line-up has been discussed lately. I would have: Chris Paul at PG move Stephen Curry to SG Klay Thompson at G/F Lebron James at PF move Anthony Davis to C. I can't have any one on my squad that can't shoot, like that doofus Dwight Howard. Somewhat side note: Steve Kerr was a guest on The Herd with Colin Cowherd the other day and he said that he and Stephen Curry have a shooting contest after practice once a week, and in that time, Steve Kerr said he's only missed one shot and has never beaten Stephen Curry. God bless. No we can not agree on that. G curry G Westbrook F Durant F lebron F/c Davis Two injured players but if you were starting a team today I think those are the five you take. |
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Nov 26, 2014 11:40:46 GMT -5
Post by Let It Bleed on Nov 26, 2014 11:40:46 GMT -5
Can we at least agree that Milky Way Midnight Dark candy bars are the best candy bars on the market right now? Let's discuss the current all NBA starting line-up; the all-time starting line-up has been discussed lately. I would have: Chris Paul at PG move Stephen Curry to SG Klay Thompson at G/F Lebron James at PF move Anthony Davis to C. I can't have any one on my squad that can't shoot, like that doofus Dwight Howard. Somewhat side note: Steve Kerr was a guest on The Herd with Colin Cowherd the other day and he said that he and Stephen Curry have a shooting contest after practice once a week, and in that time, Steve Kerr said he's only missed one shot and has never beaten Stephen Curry. God bless. No we can not agree on that. G curry G Westbrook F Durant F lebron F/c Davis Two injured players but if you were starting a team today I think those are the five you take. So, what is the best candy bar? Snickers Peanut Butter Squared? Yeah, I picked players that aren't injured.....of course, Durantula would be on the starting team if healthy. God bless. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 15:52:02 GMT -5
No we can not agree on that. G curry G Westbrook F Durant F lebron F/c Davis Two injured players but if you were starting a team today I think those are the five you take. So, what is the best candy bar? Snickers Peanut Butter Squared? Yeah, I picked players that aren't injured.....of course, Durantula would be on the starting team if healthy. God bless. Best candy bar ?? The old 100 ,000 dollar bar "........ On topic. Is Rose gonna end up a bust ? Guy is on bench more than on court |
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