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Post by gdforever on Dec 29, 2010 13:06:19 GMT -5
What I think that Liam has excelled @ much better than Noel is surrounding himself with people that can help him do what he wants and using them appropriately.
In the beginning he knew he needed a band so he joined Tony, Bonehead, and Guigs.
He knew they needed tunes so Noel came in.
When he set up Pretty Green he got people in that were able to design the kinds of clothing that he wanted to see and people that could run the business part of it.
When Oasis split up he proposed BDI to Gem, Andy, and Chris without delay.
When it came time to produce the album he got them a great producer in Lillywhite
Everything he has done he could not have done without substantial help by others. Noels biggest achievment was writing songs...he could have done that with just him and his guitar. He wouldn't have been as successful, might not even have gotten a record deal...but he could have written the tunes.
I remember watching an interview from Noel circa 2000 when someone asked him whether the abuse from his father had changed him @ all. He said that he thought it probably just made him more independent and less willing to rely on others.
I think Noel has always thrived on his ability to be independent. Liam on the other hand I think has always thrived on being part of a unit.
If Noel had not become the rock star that he is I think he would probably be a much different person. I think the years of fame and enforced extroversion was not exactly a natural fit for him...but he grew into that role.
Personally I think that, though we all slag it, HC was probably close to the height of his ambition. An album created and produced independently of outside forces.
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Post by oneeye on Dec 29, 2010 13:17:13 GMT -5
Definitely ^
Liam had his brothers when he was growing up, so could rely on them at times.
I just think Noel seems to burn more bridges with people - yes he's respected in the industry, but Liam seems to keep more people by his side - even his ex-wife!
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Post by gdforever on Dec 29, 2010 13:33:43 GMT -5
^ The thing about always insisting on being part of a unit is that Liam never has to take sole responsiblity for anything. Diffusion of blame. You can never blame Liam for anything because nothing is ever soley his fault. Particularly in Oasis. If anything was wrong with an album we blamed Noel before we would even think about the rest of them.
LJ is what I always come back to. It's a travesty that that tune if on SOTSOG instead of LAMB. But ultimately who do we blame for that? In my mind...without a doubt Noel. I am sure that Liam pushed for it...but Noel was Noel and he dropped the ball with the track selection. Same with the inclusion of AGN, TNOR, and SO on DOYS.
It will obviously be less pronounced with BDI. But if the album sucks, not saying it will, or if the next one sucks we are going to blame them all. Noone in BDI is going to carry the burden Noel did in Oasis, least of all Liam. Because @ the end of the day the others involved all have more experience and know-how than Liam.
I like that about BDI though. Even think back @ our discussions about BTL and FLW. Even those that didn't like it weren't ragging on one person along, they were expressing frustration at the group as a whole. It wasn't all about Liam, or Andy, or Gem. I think that is infinitely healthier than The-Buck-Stops-At-Noel mentality that we have with Oasis.
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Post by oneeye on Dec 29, 2010 13:41:37 GMT -5
^ more of a relaxed approach to things maybe with BE
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Post by Marcos on Dec 29, 2010 21:42:37 GMT -5
^ The thing about always insisting on being part of a unit is that Liam never has to take sole responsiblity for anything. Diffusion of blame. You can never blame Liam for anything because nothing is ever soley his fault. Particularly in Oasis. If anything was wrong with an album we blamed Noel before we would even think about the rest of them. LJ is what I always come back to. It's a travesty that that tune if on SOTSOG instead of LAMB. But ultimately who do we blame for that? In my mind...without a doubt Noel. I am sure that Liam pushed for it...but Noel was Noel and he dropped the ball with the track selection. Same with the inclusion of AGN, TNOR, and SO on DOYS. It will obviously be less pronounced with BDI. But if the album sucks, not saying it will, or if the next one sucks we are going to blame them all. Noone in BDI is going to carry the burden Noel did in Oasis, least of all Liam. Because @ the end of the day the others involved all have more experience and know-how than Liam. I like that about BDI though. Even think back @ our discussions about BTL and FLW. Even those that didn't like it weren't ragging on one person along, they were expressing frustration at the group as a whole. It wasn't all about Liam, or Andy, or Gem. I think that is infinitely healthier than The-Buck-Stops-At-Noel mentality that we have with Oasis. Very good points, gdforever. Just one thing though, I don't think Liam pushed for Little James. I remember watching a Noel interview where he told the story about it. Liam approached him saying he had written a song and Noel asked to listen it. After that, Noel said: "Right, this is going to the album!" and Liam was all nervous saying "are you sure? shouldn't I change this or that?". Then Noel told how he asked Liam if he wanted to be a songwriter or not! Damn, wish I could remember what interview was that, it's really interesting. Another funny thing is that while most of Oasis fans hate songs like TMOS or AGN, Noel simply loves them! |
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Post by spaneli on Dec 29, 2010 21:58:38 GMT -5
I have just read this entire thread, and one thing is very obvious to me. . . you all are so far up Liam's arse you cannot see light without a flashlight. I love Liam the singer/musician, but Liam the person is pretty well an asshole most of the time. And it's not about Liam vs. Noel, and never was about that. To me, too much is made of people's personal lives in conjunction with their music. While life fuels music, it doesn't make the music. So while i love the music, I don't have to love the person necessarily. Most of you appear to be giving credit to Liam for things he really never did, namely make those great songs back in the 90's. He had nothing to do with it, and that is documented. The voice is iconic, but a great song is hard to fuck up! So let's take a step back and appreciate Liam for what he TRULY is: a Singer who dabbles in songwriting from time to time. Cheers! How do you know 'Liam the person is pretty well an asshole most of the time?' ffs. All the fan experiences i've seen on the net of meeting Liam say he's nothing less than a gentleman. You seem to buy into the 'media liam'. I've heard Noel sing full Oasis gigs and barring a few good moments, or the little acoustic tour which by its uniqueness was good. The songs don't carry the same punch without Liam. Agree. Liam and Noel are depicted as dicks a lot of the time, but that doesnt mean they're dicks. I think Liam is a cool guy. The only time its seems as if Liam is a complete ass, is when he is drunk. I some what disagree with the acoustic tour comment. I'd take a Noel acoustic gig any day. Yes the songs dont have the same punch, but its hard to say that Noel's voice doesnt give the songs more emotions. Noel's voice puts a ton of pure emotion that sometimes is in not in Liam's performance. Espeically, of late. |
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Post by spaneli on Dec 29, 2010 22:04:58 GMT -5
^ The thing about always insisting on being part of a unit is that Liam never has to take sole responsiblity for anything. Diffusion of blame. You can never blame Liam for anything because nothing is ever soley his fault. Particularly in Oasis. If anything was wrong with an album we blamed Noel before we would even think about the rest of them. LJ is what I always come back to. It's a travesty that that tune if on SOTSOG instead of LAMB. But ultimately who do we blame for that? In my mind...without a doubt Noel. I am sure that Liam pushed for it...but Noel was Noel and he dropped the ball with the track selection. Same with the inclusion of AGN, TNOR, and SO on DOYS. It will obviously be less pronounced with BDI. But if the album sucks, not saying it will, or if the next one sucks we are going to blame them all. Noone in BDI is going to carry the burden Noel did in Oasis, least of all Liam. Because @ the end of the day the others involved all have more experience and know-how than Liam. I like that about BDI though. Even think back @ our discussions about BTL and FLW. Even those that didn't like it weren't ragging on one person along, they were expressing frustration at the group as a whole. It wasn't all about Liam, or Andy, or Gem. I think that is infinitely healthier than The-Buck-Stops-At-Noel mentality that we have with Oasis. Very good points, gdforever. Just one thing though, I don't think Liam pushed for Little James. I remember watching a Noel interview where he told the story about it. Liam approached him saying he had written a song and Noel asked to listen it. After that, Noel said: "Right, this is going to the album!" and Liam was all nervous saying "are you sure? shouldn't I change this or that?". Then Noel told how he asked Liam if he wanted to be a songwriter or not! Damn, wish I could remember what interview was that, it's really interesting. Another funny thing is that while most of Oasis fans hate songs like TMOS or AGN, Noel simply loves them! I know what you're talking about. I think it was actually Noel who secretly taped Liam singing and playing the song to himself and then while Liam was on a holiday, Noel & Alan White picked out the chords he was playing and then started building the song themselves. And then when Liam came back, the song was done. |
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Post by thomas09 on Dec 29, 2010 22:24:28 GMT -5
^
i remember reading this somewhere too.
i suppose different gear will definitely show how much liam has matured as a songwriter through the years. and i think its going to be great to see the effect that noel not being there will have. in a way it will be a negative effect but in another i think it could be a good thing - afterall noel put AGN onto DOYS instead of BWTB which in my opinion is arguably one of liams best songs so far.
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Post by Marcos on Dec 29, 2010 22:37:07 GMT -5
Very good points, gdforever. Just one thing though, I don't think Liam pushed for Little James. I remember watching a Noel interview where he told the story about it. Liam approached him saying he had written a song and Noel asked to listen it. After that, Noel said: "Right, this is going to the album!" and Liam was all nervous saying "are you sure? shouldn't I change this or that?". Then Noel told how he asked Liam if he wanted to be a songwriter or not! Damn, wish I could remember what interview was that, it's really interesting. Another funny thing is that while most of Oasis fans hate songs like TMOS or AGN, Noel simply loves them! I know what you're talking about. I think it was actually Noel who secretly taped Liam singing and playing the song to himself and then while Liam was on a holiday, Noel & Alan White picked out the chords he was playing and then started building the song themselves. And then when Liam came back, the song was done. Yes!! That's it. I think Noel secretly taped Liam singing in his hotel room somewhere. |
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Post by Guy Fawkes on Dec 30, 2010 6:30:41 GMT -5
^ The thing about always insisting on being part of a unit is that Liam never has to take sole responsiblity for anything. Diffusion of blame. You can never blame Liam for anything because nothing is ever soley his fault. Particularly in Oasis. If anything was wrong with an album we blamed Noel before we would even think about the rest of them. LJ is what I always come back to. It's a travesty that that tune if on SOTSOG instead of LAMB. But ultimately who do we blame for that? In my mind...without a doubt Noel. I am sure that Liam pushed for it...but Noel was Noel and he dropped the ball with the track selection. Same with the inclusion of AGN, TNOR, and SO on DOYS. It will obviously be less pronounced with BDI. But if the album sucks, not saying it will, or if the next one sucks we are going to blame them all. Noone in BDI is going to carry the burden Noel did in Oasis, least of all Liam. Because @ the end of the day the others involved all have more experience and know-how than Liam. I like that about BDI though. Even think back @ our discussions about BTL and FLW. Even those that didn't like it weren't ragging on one person along, they were expressing frustration at the group as a whole. It wasn't all about Liam, or Andy, or Gem. I think that is infinitely healthier than The-Buck-Stops-At-Noel mentality that we have with Oasis. fear not, we're gonna get you a prostitute too.  |
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Post by oneeye on Dec 30, 2010 7:15:14 GMT -5
let's not forget - Noel wasn't exactly a brilliant songwriter straight away.
Noel had been writing for years before he even wrote Live Forever etc. He was writing way before that - and some of those songs are just rubbish (Noel's Notebook for example)
So in theory - Liam with Little James was the same as Noel at this earlier stage, writing crap lyrics to rthyme to make the song work.
Now Liam is getting to the stage where Noel was at when he wrote Live Forver and others (only maybe not quite as good but still good)
Too many people think Noel just started writing Live Forever type songs, when he just didn't - he worked and worked at his writing, just as Liam has probably done over recent years.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Dec 30, 2010 7:29:06 GMT -5
How do you know 'Liam the person is pretty well an asshole most of the time?' ffs. All the fan experiences i've seen on the net of meeting Liam say he's nothing less than a gentleman. You seem to buy into the 'media liam'. I've heard Noel sing full Oasis gigs and barring a few good moments, or the little acoustic tour which by its uniqueness was good. The songs don't carry the same punch without Liam. Agree. Liam and Noel are depicted as dicks a lot of the time, but that doesnt mean they're dicks. I think Liam is a cool guy. The only time its seems as if Liam is a complete ass, is when he is drunk. I some what disagree with the acoustic tour comment. I'd take a Noel acoustic gig any day. Yes the songs dont have the same punch, but its hard to say that Noel's voice doesnt give the songs more emotions. Noel's voice puts a ton of pure emotion that sometimes is in not in Liam's performance. Espeically, of late. Don't get me wrong I loved the acoustic tour and I also think it will be different when Noel releases his solo album as he'll be singing songs knowing that there for him to take out there live. |
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Post by putthisin ® on Dec 30, 2010 7:38:34 GMT -5
I know what you're talking about. I think it was actually Noel who secretly taped Liam singing and playing the song to himself and then while Liam was on a holiday, Noel & Alan White picked out the chords he was playing and then started building the song themselves. And then when Liam came back, the song was done. Yes!! That's it. I think Noel secretly taped Liam singing in his hotel room somewhere. I saw a Noel interview somewhere (actually, Liam was there too) where he said that Liam phoned him in the middle of the night begging for LJ to be on the album. Liam was embarrassed so I though it was true It was about STC album. Noel was saying that Liam didn't insist to put LJ on that album like he did with SOTSOG.  Found it: at 6.53 |
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Post by Marcos on Dec 30, 2010 21:04:48 GMT -5
So I guess Noel is note very reliable! His stories always have at least 7 versions lol
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Post by spaneli on Dec 30, 2010 21:45:06 GMT -5
^^ahah yep. It the version you get all depends on who are lol
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Post by thestellasarecold on Dec 31, 2010 0:11:42 GMT -5
I think Liam's done an exceptional job with his clothing line whilst still keeping the musical ball rolling. It was said by some when Pretty Green started that he was washed up and clutching at straws, knowing his musical career was over. This, however, was clearly untrue. Liam continues to be a highly popular icon amongst a certain rabid demograph and he has surrounded himself with the right people in reciprocal relationships.
However, if you don't know any of this; if you're not a fan or you simply don't 'get' someone like Liam, his abrasive approach is not exactly a positive for public relations (ie: public relations for a new band starting out, albeit a band with established figures). For instance, already there have been the usual sweeping statements (ie: "best album in fifty years", "as good as Definitely Maybe" etc.) Even though we all know this is the usual bravado and some of it is taking the piss, such an approach sets him up for a potential fall and a critical backlash. It was the same with Oasis- punters and press alike allowed their dislike for the Gallaghers' mouths colour their view of the brothers' musical work.
In the NME, all the band members were firing shots already. Gem says there are too many bands out there that don't make 'complete albums' before running off a series of 'offenders' including Tame Impala and others. Liam says too many bands are full of "posh" people and Andy interjects, "there's nothing wrong with being posh". Whilst I found all this highly amusing, if I was reading about the band for the first time and knew little of their previous work, I'd be turned off by such righteousness. Consuming a bit of humble pie never hurts, especially when there are records to sell, points to prove and new fans to attract...
Liam has shown signs of being more even tempered and mellow in recent years but he still has plenty of obnoxious, irrational moments. That recent Brit Awards incident with the statue brought Noel's Familiar to Millions comment to mind, "that kid is a bad advert for drug abuse". I just hope Liam lets the BE record and live shows do most of the talking; back it up with action!
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Post by ToneBender on Jan 2, 2011 9:47:51 GMT -5
Personally, I find nothing wrong with what Liam did at the Brits award. He thanked the three members of the band that got absolutely no attention for their work, at all. If Noel had been there standing silently next to him while Liam made the same statement, would people have been as offended?
I really doubt that Liam was trying to negate what Noel did for the band. In fact, he made a point of saying as much shortly thereafter. So what's wrong with him making a point of thanking the other three? Do any of you really think that album would've sounded the same if Tony had played on it as opposed to Alan? Do you think Bonehead and Guigsy brought absolutely nothing to the table when recording?
With re: to Liam's PR approach, you don't think it's a positive? Any press is good press. Do any of you really think that interviews with Liam et al aren't geared towards generating headlines that will sell magazines?
It's a symbiotic relationship:
Liam makes an outlandish statement --> The magazine prints the statement as a headline and sells more magazines --> The quote gets reprinted in other publications citing both the band and the original interview --> X amount of people reading this other magazine or internet site just found out Liam Gallagher still exists and has a new record coming out and they can get the FULL interview in X magazine --> Everyone sells more while having a good laugh.
I hardly think that Beady Eye cares about reaching people that would be that offended by them not liking the work of some of their contemporaries.
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Post by Rolo on Jan 2, 2011 14:56:44 GMT -5
^ The thing about always insisting on being part of a unit is that Liam never has to take sole responsiblity for anything. Diffusion of blame. You can never blame Liam for anything because nothing is ever soley his fault. Particularly in Oasis. If anything was wrong with an album we blamed Noel before we would even think about the rest of them. LJ is what I always come back to. It's a travesty that that tune if on SOTSOG instead of LAMB. But ultimately who do we blame for that? In my mind...without a doubt Noel. I am sure that Liam pushed for it...but Noel was Noel and he dropped the ball with the track selection. Same with the inclusion of AGN, TNOR, and SO on DOYS. It will obviously be less pronounced with BDI. But if the album sucks, not saying it will, or if the next one sucks we are going to blame them all. Noone in BDI is going to carry the burden Noel did in Oasis, least of all Liam. Because @ the end of the day the others involved all have more experience and know-how than Liam. I like that about BDI though. Even think back @ our discussions about BTL and FLW. Even those that didn't like it weren't ragging on one person along, they were expressing frustration at the group as a whole. It wasn't all about Liam, or Andy, or Gem. I think that is infinitely healthier than The-Buck-Stops-At-Noel mentality that we have with Oasis. Very good points, gdforever. Just one thing though, I don't think Liam pushed for Little James. I remember watching a Noel interview where he told the story about it. Liam approached him saying he had written a song and Noel asked to listen it. After that, Noel said: "Right, this is going to the album!" and Liam was all nervous saying "are you sure? shouldn't I change this or that?". Then Noel told how he asked Liam if he wanted to be a songwriter or not! Damn, wish I could remember what interview was that, it's really interesting. Another funny thing is that while most of Oasis fans hate songs like TMOS or AGN, Noel simply loves them! I'm pretty sure you're on about the interview with Noel on the Songbird single DVD, great little interview with all the band, it's a good insight to Liam's songs and what Noel thinks about them. |
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Post by gdforever on Jan 2, 2011 17:17:41 GMT -5
Very good points, gdforever. Just one thing though, I don't think Liam pushed for Little James. I remember watching a Noel interview where he told the story about it. Liam approached him saying he had written a song and Noel asked to listen it. After that, Noel said: "Right, this is going to the album!" and Liam was all nervous saying "are you sure? shouldn't I change this or that?". Then Noel told how he asked Liam if he wanted to be a songwriter or not! Damn, wish I could remember what interview was that, it's really interesting. Another funny thing is that while most of Oasis fans hate songs like TMOS or AGN, Noel simply loves them! I know what you're talking about. I think it was actually Noel who secretly taped Liam singing and playing the song to himself and then while Liam was on a holiday, Noel & Alan White picked out the chords he was playing and then started building the song themselves. And then when Liam came back, the song was done. I am sure that he didn't push it in over stenous objections from Noel. But @ the end of the day it was his song and he chose to put it on there. I have heard him complain specifically about SOTSOG and complain about some of the tunes but never has he said that he though LJ shouldn't be on it. Also I remember Noel saying during the HC promo that Liam has said that he only ever wanted one song on an album and that was Little James but then wrote some great ones before the next album so he had more. I also remember something about when Liam broached the subject of LJ being on the album Noel said they put it on because it was basically he thought it was choice between encouraging Liam to contribute or shutting him down and causing Liam to go back into his cave....which frankly sounds very plausible. It's possible that Liam asked for it, Noel gave in, and Liamgot cold feet which is when he asked if Noel was sure. I think that is a pretty likely string of events. I don't doubt the story of Noel overhearing the song and doing it up properly. But that doesn't explain why it was on the album. It would've been fine as a B-side. |
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Post by BEng on Jan 2, 2011 17:59:49 GMT -5
That recent Brit Awards incident with the statue brought Noel's Familiar to Millions comment to mind, "that kid is a bad advert for drug abuse". I just hope Liam lets the BE record and live shows do most of the talking; back it up with action! Always thought he said: "And that, my kids, is a bad advert for drug abuse" or something like that. (replying on: Whose idea was it for the phonebox last time? Just get a tart get her tits out")  |
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Post by songbirdsally on Jan 3, 2011 12:55:04 GMT -5
But when it's a big event or he knows there's going to more than the hardcore Oasis listeners paying attention Liam always lives up to his wee-man syndrome (he's the younger brother deemed lucky to have his older brother) and tries to put Noel down and make himself look big. It's pop, though classic, psychology but Liam is a man with an inferiority complex towards Noel that he probably doesn't even know he has. I think if Noel and Liam were in the same room for 6 hours and sat and shared a drink or a few joints and just talked about their career with the knowledge that nothing ever scaped the confinds of that room then Liam would be very, very, very complimentary of Noel... it just so happens that because of who he is, or pretends to be, he can't ever admit it. I assume you are talking the post-split period here? I'd be very surprised if Liam was praising Noel now - but then, bar the Brits incident which I agree was below-the-belt, Liam hasn't been Noel-bashing either. And Noel, as we all know, hasn't said a word. In a larger context, however, I'm always surprised how Noel and Liam are viewed as always putting each other down. Having followed them since 1994, there are masses of interviews where they are almost sickeningly:-) complimentary of each other and full of praise. Noel, from 1997: " Liam is the only one in the entire world that can express my songs in the way he does. And he is the only one who can bring a sense of warmth to my songs. I'll say without exaggeration that, he is a special person in all ways possible as a human being." Again, from 1997: I wanna confound me, I wanna confound him (Liam). When I play him the demos of the next album I want him to tell me that he ain’t gonna sing it because it’s naff, and I’ll think, well, we’re getting somewhere now… As long as he (Liam) likes it… When I’m sure about something, then I only need him to like it, to say, ‘Yes, you’re right.’ And he can sit down and say what he likes, like ‘I’m just the singer’, but it’s his band.And: "(Noel) Gallagher goes on to say that Liam always "knows what I'm goin' on about, even when I'm goin' on about nothing. We have the same sort of semi-delinquent state of mind. And I've always realized the importance of him--it's just that Liam doesn't think that I do. Liam seems to think that I think he's a shithead, but I don't." Pause. Then a declaration. "I don't think he's any more--or any less--than the greatest singer in show business. Simple as that."Noel, in 2002: "I respect Liam's opinion more than anybody else's on the planet.”And these are just a few examples. If this is not love & approval & complimentary, then I don't know what is. As for Liam's songwriting, in many cases Noel seems to be his biggest fan, taking into account the reviews Liam's early songs got. E.g. from 2002: " "What's really changed is that I'm no longer the main songwriter. I'm one of the songwriters and the best songwriter may well be Liam. His three songs are absolutely mega. I mean, really. You wait until you hear them, people are going to be very, very surprised at how good he is."And from 2005: "He's got... well, the…the jump in class from Little James to Songbird was amazing, because Songbird is such a great song and it's really, really simple, and the jump again in class from Songbird to Guess God Thinks I'm Abel, and the meaning is massive, so he's getting there, but you've got to kind of whisper, let's whisper it between me, you and the rest of the world, you know, because he can get a bit big headed, you know. But he's doing great. I mean, I love his... love his songs, you know, and that's probably the biggest compliment I can pay him."As for Liam's - often quite bizarre - declarations of love & respect towards Noel, there are so many of them I'd probably better stop here:-). Suffice it to say that I really don't think the problem was/is that they "didn't communicate enough". What I've always felt is that what they wanted from each other (Liam more than Noel, IMO) was something so out-of-this-world total and overwhelming that it could never materialize. I LOVED reading this, I think you've got it totally right. Their love for eachother is huge! Colossal! And I think Liam really feels let down at the moment, he loves Noel more than anything and he admits it even now, what Noel doesn't. Noel is not like that. He sure loves Liam as well but won't say it anymore.. It's sad.. |
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Post by Rolo on Jan 3, 2011 13:33:54 GMT -5
Go to 1:39, I think Liam looks up to Noel quite a lot and the same goes to Noel looking up to Liam, they just don't show it much at times.
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