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Post by oasisfanboy on Nov 13, 2010 14:53:19 GMT -5
Does every song you like or think is good have good lyrics? Christ - it'd be impossible to be an Oasis fan if good lyrics were important! ;D |
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Post by spaneli on Nov 13, 2010 14:54:05 GMT -5
I thought it was a pretty good encapsulation about what I have been reading the past...God...has it only been 3 days? What do you think? LOL Yeah there has been a lot of "its either my way or the highway" on both sides. There have been plenty of people on here who have said that they think its okay and have been slagged off for giving their opinion, and same thing goes for people who have said that its complete shit or amazing. The worst thing thing though is that not many people are willing to discuss what might be the short comings of the song or what might have been done differently. Its getting pretty hectic around when it comes to having your own voice. I might take a break for a bit just to get away from this before I go crazy, though I'm probably already there. lol |
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Post by spaneli on Nov 13, 2010 14:58:33 GMT -5
You will notice that AT NO POINT did spaneli OR I say anything about what we thought that it should sound like, or what we thought that the lyrics should be about. The only expectation is that they deliver something good. Tell me that you think that those lyrics are good. That LAG could not have done any better. Not that they are "good enough" which is basically just justifying mediocrity. I am not discussing their quality or otherwise - I'm just questioning whether it's wise to judge a piece of work against an EXPECTATION or ON SOMETHING'S OWN MERITS! Agian if you read my posts I have not said that I judged it on the basis of my expectations. I have said in many of my posts that I judged as if I was not an Oasis fan, but if I had heard BTL on randomly on the radio. My judgement was that if I had heard it on the radio randomly and I had not known that it was BDI that I would think and do think that its okay. I have not been judging anything with any pre concieved expectations. Nor in my posts in this thread have I done that, yet you keep trying to attach that to me. I said lyrics could've have been better. Not amazing, not great, but better and the guitar solo and riff in the song could've been better. Did you hear any pre-concieved notions in that, no I think not. |
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Post by oasisfanboy on Nov 13, 2010 15:04:30 GMT -5
Agian if you read my posts I have not said that I judged it on the basis of my expectations. I have said in many of my posts that I judged as if I was not an Oasis fan, but if I had heard BTL on randomly on the radio. My judgement was that if I had heard it on the radio randomly and I had not known that it was BDI that I would think and do think that its okay. I have not been judging anything with any pre concieved expectations. In that case, I apologise for misreading your posts and offer a conciliatory handshake. I think that's exactly the right attitude. There's just lots of people who jumped off a cliff upon first listen saying it was shite simply as it "wasn't like I'd imagined it", and how it was no good as it "didn't have loud guitars and a flowing melody like Some Might Say", etc etc! |
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Post by gdforever on Nov 13, 2010 15:05:44 GMT -5
You will notice that AT NO POINT did spaneli OR I say anything about what we thought that it should sound like, or what we thought that the lyrics should be about. The only expectation is that they deliver something good. Tell me that you think that those lyrics are good. That LAG could not have done any better. Not that they are "good enough" which is basically just justifying mediocrity. I am not discussing their quality or otherwise - I'm just questioning whether it's wise to judge a piece of work against an EXPECTATION or ON SOMETHING'S OWN MERITS! Expectations are always is place. You expect the musicians you like to put out the best material that they can. There is nothing wrong with that. I refuse to believe that LAG worked really hard on these lyrics and these are the best they could do. I have judged the lyrics on their own merits. And they are not good. Look @ it this way. Say I was a human rights activist and I am extremely bad at public speaking. I go into my job preformance evaluation and my boss discusses the fact that not all areas of my preformance are of to snuff. He says I need to work on my public speaking. I have good ideas but my execution needs some work. Is it fair that I should leave that office and start complain to people that the only reason that he doesn't think that my public speaking is not up to snuff is that he expects everyone to be Martin Luther King? If they didn't compare me to Martin Luther King then I would be doing fine. Sure my public speaking isn't good...but it's their fault that they are disappointed with my skills because they expected me to have them! |
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Post by oasisfanboy on Nov 13, 2010 15:15:29 GMT -5
Expectations are always is place. You expect the musicians you like to put out the best material that they can. There is nothing wrong with that. I refuse to believe that LAG worked really hard on these lyrics and these are the best they could do. I have judged the lyrics on their own merits. And they are not good. Look @ it this way. Say I was a human rights activist and I am extremely bad at public speaking. I go into my job preformance evaluation and my boss discusses the fact that not all areas of my preformance are of to snuff. He says I need to work on my public speaking. I have good ideas but my execution needs some work. Is it fair that I should leave that office and start complain to people that the only reason that he doesn't think that my public speaking is not up to snuff is that he expects everyone to be Martin Luther King? If they didn't compare me to Martin Luther King then I would be doing fine. Sure my public speaking isn't good...but it's their fault that they are disappointed with my skills because they expected me to have them! Ooh - interesting post. Enjoyed reading that. I definitely buy the first half of your post but not your analogy, which I think fails as your boss is in a genuine position of authority over you and can as such judge your performance on his defined standards and his alone. This is a different scenario to fans subjectively commenting from no such position of authority, merely reduced to subjectivity. Whether or not you reckon LAG have worked as hard as they should on the lyrics is entirely appropriate, however. It's trickier to define exactly what "better" looks like. |
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Post by gdforever on Nov 13, 2010 15:21:08 GMT -5
Does every song you like or think is good have good lyrics? Christ - it'd be impossible to be an Oasis fan if good lyrics were important! ;D I am critical of the Oasis songs that have bad lyrics too (PYMWYMI, LJ, IHITIK, FON). And I think that the Oasis songs that have some great lyrics, (LF, TIOBI, GP, FD, SA) have step up on those with average lyrics (Lyla, LBL, TT). I think it's wrong to say that Oasis had no good lyrics. There are some horrible ones...but there are some great ones. Most are average...which is still better than this. |
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Post by gdforever on Nov 13, 2010 15:25:13 GMT -5
Expectations are always is place. You expect the musicians you like to put out the best material that they can. There is nothing wrong with that. I refuse to believe that LAG worked really hard on these lyrics and these are the best they could do. I have judged the lyrics on their own merits. And they are not good. Look @ it this way. Say I was a human rights activist and I am extremely bad at public speaking. I go into my job preformance evaluation and my boss discusses the fact that not all areas of my preformance are of to snuff. He says I need to work on my public speaking. I have good ideas but my execution needs some work. Is it fair that I should leave that office and start complain to people that the only reason that he doesn't think that my public speaking is not up to snuff is that he expects everyone to be Martin Luther King? If they didn't compare me to Martin Luther King then I would be doing fine. Sure my public speaking isn't good...but it's their fault that they are disappointed with my skills because they expected me to have them! Ooh - interesting post. Enjoyed reading that. I definitely buy the first half of your post but not your analogy, which I think fails as your boss is in a genuine position of authority over you and can as such judge your performance on his defined standards and his alone. This is a different scenario to fans subjectively commenting from no such position of authority, merely reduced to subjectivity. Whether or not you reckon LAG have worked as hard as they should on the lyrics is entirely appropriate, however. It's trickier to define exactly what "better" looks like. Fine...point taken. I've come up with a change to the analogy that will take that into account. I am the human rights activist. I am still rubbish at public speaking. I do conferences. At the end of my speech I hand out comment cards. The feedback comes back and a most people say that I have to work on my public speaking. Is it fair that I should say that it is their fault because they shouldn't have come in expecting me to have any public speaking skills. Maybe I will never aquire that skill....maybe it just isn't in me. But that doesn't make the criticism any less valid. |
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Post by oasisfanboy on Nov 13, 2010 16:12:05 GMT -5
Ooh - interesting post. Enjoyed reading that. I definitely buy the first half of your post but not your analogy, which I think fails as your boss is in a genuine position of authority over you and can as such judge your performance on his defined standards and his alone. This is a different scenario to fans subjectively commenting from no such position of authority, merely reduced to subjectivity. Whether or not you reckon LAG have worked as hard as they should on the lyrics is entirely appropriate, however. It's trickier to define exactly what "better" looks like. Fine...point taken. I've come up with a change to the analogy that will take that into account. I am the human rights activist. I am still rubbish at public speaking. I do conferences. At the end of my speech I hand out comment cards. The feedback comes back and a most people say that I have to work on my public speaking. Is it fair that I should say that it is their fault because they shouldn't have come in expecting me to have any public speaking skills. Maybe I will never aquire that skill....maybe it just isn't in me. But that doesn't make the criticism any less valid. Yes, largely agree. I suppose one could argue that we're talking about the content rather than the delivery - i.e. your feedback cards would focus less on your public speaking skills but rather on the exact words you're saying - but agree to take your point. I still come back to the point that it's hard to argue the lyrics could be better when we don't have a framework for what "better" is in the context of the song and the appropriateness FOR that song. If better is indeed a majority opinion as you suggest, then I guess it's Winston Churchill - democracy is the worst form of government except for all others that have been tried! |
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Post by gdforever on Nov 13, 2010 16:37:26 GMT -5
Fine...point taken. I've come up with a change to the analogy that will take that into account. I am the human rights activist. I am still rubbish at public speaking. I do conferences. At the end of my speech I hand out comment cards. The feedback comes back and a most people say that I have to work on my public speaking. Is it fair that I should say that it is their fault because they shouldn't have come in expecting me to have any public speaking skills. Maybe I will never aquire that skill....maybe it just isn't in me. But that doesn't make the criticism any less valid. Yes, largely agree. I suppose one could argue that we're talking about the content rather than the delivery - i.e. your feedback cards would focus less on your public speaking skills but rather on the exact words you're saying - but agree to take your point. I still come back to the point that it's hard to argue the lyrics could be better when we don't have a framework for what "better" is in the context of the song and the appropriateness FOR that song. If better is indeed a majority opinion as you suggest, then I guess it's Winston Churchill - democracy is the worst form of government except for all others that have been tried! Your right that it is difficult to get the shades of good right. That is very dependent. Or even to separate great lyrics from good lyrics. However...I think that bad lyrics are pretty apparent. And that is what I think these are. Noone, not even you, has said they are good lyrics. They haven't even said "they could be worse." The most positive thing anyone has attempt was that they were 'good enough" for the song or "still not as bad as LJ". And that seems the wrong way to be approaching this. Hence I can only assume that must mean that noone thinks that they are good...in which case this "subjectivity" that you speak of is correct in the abstract and falls down under scrutiny. Having lyrics that someone, anyone, said that they liked instead of something that everyone is brushing aside would have been improvement. That is what I would qualify as better. Maybe an abstract idea, a metaphor, an analogy, some imagery, a narrative, maybe a unique word, or more variety. I love, for instance, the lyrics if Idlers Dream...I'd read those as poetry...they are beautiful set to music...but I'd read them on their own and they would invoke a feeling. Same with Falling Down or any of the other Oasis lyrics that I find truly great. Although poetry, which is basically what lyrics are when you take away the music, is subjective. There are ways of discussing it. You can defend the reason that you like certain pieces of poetry. Nothing says that one persons opinion is right or wrong...but there are opinions to be had. That is the reason that people can write masters thesis' on a single W.B. Yeats poem. |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
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