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Post by Mario on Mar 23, 2009 12:12:18 GMT -5
Israel troops admit Gaza abuses
An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.
Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.
The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.
The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.
The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.
“ The climate in general [was that] lives of Palestinians are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers ” Soldier testimony
"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.
Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.
Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.
'Less important'
The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.
"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.
In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.
Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.
"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.
One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.
"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story
I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out
It was cold-blooded murder," he said.
The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.
Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.
'Moral army'
The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.
"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."
"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.
"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.
Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.
----------- Source: BBC
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Post by NYR on Mar 23, 2009 14:57:33 GMT -5
listen mario, while i agree that israel has done its fair share of wrongs in the past (and in the present), it's a war. i know i will not change your mind, but someone has to speak up in defense. no debate should be one-sided. if that person is me, so be it.
many soldiers break geneva conventions. it's just that these guys were caught. the u.s. has been guilty of committing crimes as horrendous as even the nazis. (google japanese interment camps if you don't know what i'm talking about.) the war in gaza brought out the worst in both palestinians and israelis. yet, for some reason, israel is always singled out. while in no way, shape or form am i justifying previous illegal israeli actions, it happens in every war, on both sides. especially, and i mean especially in this conflict. bad blood has been in the middle east for thousands of years. to pick out israel as if they were the only ones who do it (or who started the whole thing) is disingenuous. you're giving credence to hamas, an internationally known terrorist organization who wants nothing more than the extinction of not just the country of israel, but all jews around the world.
you see, the main problem with your analysis is that israel is not fighting a formal army. they're fighting forces who use guerilla tactics. they dress in civilian clothes and bomb from civilian places (schools, hospitals, etc.). therefore, hamas, hezbollah and other palestinian terrorist groups therefore are inciting danger upon the people they claim to fight for. they do it in the wisest manner, however. they understand that when israel bombs these public areas in which fighters of hamas and hezbollah live and fight, they have a perfect reason to vilify israel.
therefore, i have three questions for you, mario. please answer them respectfully, as i have been to you in this post. i understand that this conflict is very heated on both sides, but that passion stemmed from this high tension caused deaths on both sides. if we, on an internet forum, cannot talk peacefully and with respect, then how can the leaders of both sides talk peacefully, you know?
the first question is strategic. how can someone fight a war against an enemy known to use guerilla tactics without mistaken identities and/or civilian casualties? furthermore, if members of a certain area were to propel rockets your town or city, how would you respond, if at all? i, myself, wouldn't flash the peace sign.
the second question is based on previous comments you have made. you have compared israel to apartheid south africa. if this is what you consider to be truthful, where is the palestinian nelson mandela?
i look forward to hearing your response.
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Post by Mario on Mar 23, 2009 22:27:11 GMT -5
When did Hamas call for the extinction of all the jews around the world? I’ve never heard them say that, but I’ve heard many politicians on the television say it. I don’t believe they (Hamas) have said that, and I won’t until I hear it from their lips. Why won’t they show a footage or audio of them saying this rhetoric? You seem to have a decent perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict, so why do you focus so much on alleged Hamas threats, when Israel’s actions have led to the death of thousands of innocent women and children in the last few years? Do you see how absurd this is? We are condemning the victim but the aggressors are always justified? How can Israel always be justified but Hamas is always seen as the evil party?
The Israel-Palestine conflict did not begin when Hamas won the democratic elections. This conflict began a long time ago, and I’m sure you have an idea on what started it. It’s easy to criticize the Palestinians for recent attacks ( which I wholeheartedly condemn), but it seems hard for people to really look at the situation from its root. That root, is occupation, oppression and theft. The political ideology of Zionism wanted the people living in Palestine to be wiped off the map and replaced with Jewish settlements. That is what happened unfortunately, but people always ignore this. Just because it happened in the past, we have moved on from it. But the problem is that Palestinians have not. Many people still hold the deeds and keys to their old houses and want their land back. You can’t blame them for that. I wouldn’t just wave a peace sign at someone that wiped out my village would you? And when the Palestinians retaliated for their homes for their families, they were called aggressors and terrorists. Do you see how frustrating that position can be?
Israel is definitely not fighting an army. They are fighting a resistance of a people without F16 jets, without big tanks, and without high tech armor and firearms. Instead of focusing of how Israel should fight the Palestinians guerilla groups, ask yourself why are the Palestinians and Israelis fighting? It is over land and occupation right? Well Palestinians are not occupying Israeli land, in fact it’s the other way around. It all starts from occupation, what follows is consequent. The Palestinians suicide bombers (who I condemn for their actions) are invented by Israeli aggression and occupation. They are created out of fear and hopelessness not genetics and religion.
Just put yourself in the perspective of a Palestinian for a moment. The international community is silent about what is going on. You live under a military occupation in Gaza. The government you voted has been labeled as a terrorist because they don’t want to concede more land and accept the occupation. The borders are closed, and the Israelis only allow a minimum amount of medicine, water, electricity into your city. Israeli settlers have been stealing more land, with the IDF protecting them. How would you assess all this? If this was your reality, would it not drive you a bit crazy? The solution to this conflict is not violence, and I condemn all attacks against Israel. But if we fairly observe this crisis, its not hard to see the injustice the Palestinians have been subjugated to. But the problem is, our media is not honest about the conflict. We don’t see the Palestinians as humans on TV. We see the Israelis as our friends and the Palestinians as terrorists. We label them as terrorist so their self determination is de-legitimized. There will never be peace until people see that Palestinian blood is just as valuable as Israeli blood.
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Post by bathqueen on Mar 24, 2009 6:25:01 GMT -5
When did Hamas call for the extinction of all the jews around the world? I’ve never heard them say that,
I really dont have the time to start searchin for quotes in arabic but believe me, theyve said it soooo many times. the right wings in israel said the opposite too ofcourse. so dont be naive, theyve said it. the problem is, while the right wings in israel is nothing but a right wing, in gaza, they are the GOVERNMENT.
Israel is definitely not fighting an army. They are fighting a resistance of a people without F16 jets, without big tanks, and without high tech armor and firearms.
You dont need F16 to kill people, the KASAM bombs the hamas throw are enough. A weapon is a weapon.
ask yourself why are the Palestinians and Israelis fighting? It is over land and occupation right?
Right. no nation should be occupied by another nation. Menahem Begyn R.I.P understood that and gave back 'Yamit' to egypt, he got peace with egypt until this day for that. Ariel Sharon also understood that and gave back Gaza to the palestinians, and what that he get? KASAM bombs flying from GAZA to south israel on a daily basis! so what should be the next step? give back the west bank and get KASAMS on north israel TOO?? HAMAS must show SOME restraint, and willingness to some agreement, so israel could be CALMED about giving back the west bank, but they wont, because they are terrorists, and for them its all or nothing, which brings me back to and proves the "Hamas call for the extinction of all the jews" we talked about earlier.
But the problem is, our media is not honest about the conflict. We don’t see the Palestinians as humans on TV.
Well i dont know about your media, but the IDF has published to the media every single innocent person killed in GAZA. just like NYR is.. has said, In war, innocent get killed, on both sides, and when HAMAS acts so wrong, and take innocent gaza citizens as hostages and use their home as a base, then just more innocent people get hurt, and may i remind you, that before every israeli attack on those such improved bases, they warned the citizens through point of contact to get away from there AND when innocents did get hurt, they were hospitalized IN ISRAEL, and were rescued by ISRAELI DOCTORS!
How would you assess all this? If this was your reality, would it not drive you a bit crazy?
Have u ever heard KASAM launch..? Try imagining that you hear something that can only be described like a plane, skidding\doin wheelies in the sky, and you realise, that this screamin shriek, could suddenly end up, inn one moment, on you. I've been there, and let me tell you, theres no question here, it can defintley drive u crazy.................... This goes both sideways...
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Post by halftheworld on Mar 24, 2009 9:34:01 GMT -5
the problem is, while the right wings in israel is nothing but a right wing, in gaza, they are the GOVERNMENT. in israel the right wing pretty much rules the country, too. the latest developments show, that people have elected the hardliners. just like the palestinians. Right. no nation should be occupied by another nation. Menahem Begyn R.I.P understood that and gave back 'Yamit' to egypt, he got peace with egypt until this day for that. Ariel Sharon also understood that and gave back Gaza to the palestinians, and what that he get? KASAM bombs flying from GAZA to south israel on a daily basis! yeah, but did the illegal settlements stop? no. just like NYR is.. has said, In war, innocent get killed, on both sides, and when HAMAS acts so wrong, and take innocent gaza citizens as hostages and use their home as a base, then just more innocent people get hurt, and may i remind you, that before every israeli attack on those such improved bases, they warned the citizens through point of contact to get away from there AND when innocents did get hurt, they were hospitalized IN ISRAEL, and were rescued by ISRAELI DOCTORS! yeah, but remember. the initial article was about war crimes. this is a bit different. besides that, i think it's at least questionable to blame all the dead civilians on hamas taking them as hostages.
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Post by bathqueen on Mar 24, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
in israel the right wing pretty much rules the country, too. the latest developments show, that people have elected the hardliners. just like the palestinians.
It absolotly doesnt. the right wing that im talkin about is KAHANS people. Netanyahu is the elected prime minister, and yes, he is from the right, BUT, he did EVERYTHING to keep the kahans and other extrimists out, AND as u could see in the news today, he is going HAND IN HAND with Barak! the head of the left wing, and he is gonna be incharge on the national security as chosen to do so by NETANYAHU HIMSELF.
yeah, but did the illegal settlements stop? no.
The settlements in gaza stoped in one day! When israel steppet out of there, she did a HUGE step towards the hamas and hamas just stepped back! instead of developin some connection with israel, they just started shootin from gaza! so obviously there are still illegal settlements in the west bank! Tell me, if i make u the prime minister of israel today, would you trust hamas, that launches kasams every from gaza, not to shoot from the west bank aswell!? thats crazy, hamas did the opposite of what they should have dont to make israel give them the west bank! ISRAEL DOESNT NEED THE WEST BANK! it gave Yamit back, it gave gaza back and it can give the west bank back, but not if hamas dont do anything to prove that they wont kill from there too.
Its israel fault it settled the west bank, but its hamas fault israel it still there.
yeah, but remember. the initial article was about war crimes. this is a bit different. besides that, i think it's at least questionable to blame all the dead civilians on hamas taking them as hostages.
All i'm sayin is that in a war, there would be war crimes, but israel 1. did EVERYTHING it can to prevent damage from the innocent - handed out flyer warnings, contacted via phone and the media populated areas before attacks. 2. HELPED those who did get hurt in the israeli hospitals alongside the israelis who got hurt from kasams + sent trucks Full of Cloths, Food and medications to gaza. 3. ADMITTED + showd REGRET from every mistake that happend, like in the case of Doctor Abu El Ayash.
what about HAMAS? they just threw their bombs where ever they can, never mind if its an israeli military base or an israeli kindergarden.......
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Post by NYR on Mar 24, 2009 14:12:53 GMT -5
When did Hamas call for the extinction of all the jews around the world? I’ve never heard them say that, but I’ve heard many politicians on the television say it. I don’t believe they (Hamas) have said that, and I won’t until I hear it from their lips. Why won’t they show a footage or audio of them saying this rhetoric? hamas charter, article 7 (from a quote attributed to the prophet muhammed): "the day of judgement will not come about until muslims fight the jews (killing the jews), when the jew will hide behind stones and trees. the stones and trees will say o muslims, o abdulla, there is a jew behind me, come and kill him. only the gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the jews." You seem to have a decent perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict, so why do you focus so much on alleged Hamas threats, when Israel’s actions have led to the death of thousands of innocent women and children in the last few years? Do you see how absurd this is? We are condemning the victim but the aggressors are always justified? How can Israel always be justified but Hamas is always seen as the evil party? you're failing to realize that no side can call itself the victim. they're both aggressors. that's one of the main problems with this debate. both sides wants the sympathy. both sides are guilty of breaking international law. however, thousands of hamas rockets have been flown into israel, and what do you expect them to do? The Israel-Palestine conflict did not begin when Hamas won the democratic elections. This conflict began a long time ago, and I’m sure you have an idea on what started it. It’s easy to criticize the Palestinians for recent attacks ( which I wholeheartedly condemn), but it seems hard for people to really look at the situation from its root. That root, is occupation, oppression and theft. The political ideology of Zionism wanted the people living in Palestine to be wiped off the map and replaced with Jewish settlements. That is what happened unfortunately, but people always ignore this. Just because it happened in the past, we have moved on from it. But the problem is that Palestinians have not. Many people still hold the deeds and keys to their old houses and want their land back. You can’t blame them for that. I wouldn’t just wave a peace sign at someone that wiped out my village would you? And when the Palestinians retaliated for their homes for their families, they were called aggressors and terrorists. Do you see how frustrating that position can be? the political ideology of zionism has nothing to do with killing people living in the british mandate of palestine (or, before that, the ottoman empire). theodor herzl, the founder of the movement, called for a jewish homeland because he was sick of the anti-semitism in europe. we've also been over the "stealing/theft" thing before, and we're not going to change each other's minds about that. i've stated actual facts about zionist jews moving to israel, BUYING land from those already living there (who didn't identify as palestinian but as turkish due to hundreds of years of ottoman rule in that area, mind you). the theft and stealing that you claim israel of doing was done by the arab governments. after the un vote for israel in 1947 (which most arab countries voted for), the arabs moved many out of their lands, effectively stealing it and giving it to the israeli government. this was, of course, to save muslim lives in order to destroy israel (and more jews) effectively in the first arab-israeli war. it failed, and that's where all that "stealing" nonsense came from. Israel is definitely not fighting an army. They are fighting a resistance of a people without F16 jets, without big tanks, and without high tech armor and firearms. you don't need super-expensive weapons to fight another country. however, hamas still sends rocket-propelled grenades into israeli territory. you underestimate hamas' strength and ingenuity in finding ways to attack their enemies. and just remember, the 9/11 hijackers only used a boxcutter knife. Instead of focusing of how Israel should fight the Palestinians guerilla groups, ask yourself why are the Palestinians and Israelis fighting? It is over land and occupation right? Well Palestinians are not occupying Israeli land, in fact it’s the other way around. It all starts from occupation, what follows is consequent. The Palestinians suicide bombers (who I condemn for their actions) are invented by Israeli aggression and occupation. They are created out of fear and hopelessness not genetics and religion. here we go again... the problem with any israel-palestine debate is that it always goes to the same place: if israel had a right to be there in the first place. well, guess what, they're not going anywhere. how is it that when israel gets bombarded with thousands of rockets and bombs by hamas over years and years, it's because of defense, but when israel retaliates, it's aggression? it's a catch-22 with israel for you. damned if they do, damned if they don't. Just put yourself in the perspective of a Palestinian for a moment. The international community is silent about what is going on. You live under a military occupation in Gaza. The government you voted has been labeled as a terrorist because they don’t want to concede more land and accept the occupation. The borders are closed, and the Israelis only allow a minimum amount of medicine, water, electricity into your city. Israeli settlers have been stealing more land, with the IDF protecting them. How would you assess all this? If this was your reality, would it not drive you a bit crazy? The solution to this conflict is not violence, and I condemn all attacks against Israel. But if we fairly observe this crisis, its not hard to see the injustice the Palestinians have been subjugated to. But the problem is, our media is not honest about the conflict. We don’t see the Palestinians as humans on TV. We see the Israelis as our friends and the Palestinians as terrorists. We label them as terrorist so their self determination is de-legitimized. There will never be peace until people see that Palestinian blood is just as valuable as Israeli blood. the only countries i see standing up for israel are the u.s., u.k. and micronesia. however, i see a huge outpouring of anger over israel's actions, especially in europe. i have seen it with my own eyes. israel left the gaza strip in 2003. they'd stop the embargo if there were less rockets being flown in. furthermore, israeli settlers are idiots. they don't speak for the entire country. i've said this before, there's a difference between what a few people do and what the government stands for. that's like saying that the aryan brotherhood is the u.s. government's fault. i understand that the idf protects them, as they're protecting their citizens. however, they are forced to leave the settlements. blaming the media is a ridiculous argument, as you can choose what you see. i've seen both anti- and pro- israeli media. to simply pin all or the majority of media to leaning towards one side is lazy. nothing more, nothing less. the peace effort has to start somewhere. south africa gained its peacefully. i ask, again, where is the palestinian nelson mandela to stand up for palestinians in a peaceful manner?
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Post by Mario on Mar 24, 2009 15:22:03 GMT -5
Where did you find the hamas charter, article 7 ? I know it wasn't in English, so dont give me some translated version on an israeli website. I can read arabic and I will only believe these claims when I hear them or read them in their original form. Are you familiar with the arab peace plan? All arab governments have signed this agreement (including Hamas) and are prepared to recognize Israel and maintain normalization with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state, but you can't have a state that is occupied now can you. Don't think that West Bank and Gaza are not occupied. You can't say you've withdrawn from a place and then bomb it, and shell it, mass your tanks over its borders, and invade it. Israel has occupied Gaza and West Bank for 41 years. Hows that for peace? A United Nations report was released today, I suggest you read it. www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/10session/A.HRC.10.20.pdfThis article investigated the recent siege in gaza. If you have the time to read it, I think it will open up your eyes a bit
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Post by bathqueen on Mar 24, 2009 16:38:32 GMT -5
Don't think that West Bank and Gaza are not occupied. You can't say you've withdrawn from a place and then bomb it, and shell it, mass your tanks over its borders, and invade it. Israel has occupied Gaza and West Bank for 41 years. Hows that for peace? Israel withdrawn from YAMIT and never bombed\shelled\invaded it. ya know why? cos egypt didnt start shootin at israel from there! You cant withdrawn from a place and let it slowly bomb the south of your country, thats what u can't do. Ive said it and i'll say it again - Israel doesnt need the west bank just like it didnt need gaza, you cant seriously claim that israel needs those places, theres nothing there! no oil no agriculture no nothing, its just a burden! and just like israel gave up yamit and gaza, it could have given up the west bank by now, but no reason doin that until HAMAS stop provin that it would also bomb from there too!
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Post by NYR on Mar 25, 2009 7:49:11 GMT -5
Where did you find the hamas charter, article 7 ? I know it wasn't in English, so dont give me some translated version on an israeli website. I can read arabic and I will only believe these claims when I hear them or read them in their original form. Are you familiar with the arab peace plan? All arab governments have signed this agreement (including Hamas) and are prepared to recognize Israel and maintain normalization with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state, but you can't have a state that is occupied now can you. Don't think that West Bank and Gaza are not occupied. You can't say you've withdrawn from a place and then bomb it, and shell it, mass your tanks over its borders, and invade it. Israel has occupied Gaza and West Bank for 41 years. Hows that for peace? A United Nations report was released today, I suggest you read it. www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/10session/A.HRC.10.20.pdfThis article investigated the recent siege in gaza. If you have the time to read it, I think it will open up your eyes a bit as bathqueen said (i hope i'm not being repetitive), israel gave up the gaza strip numerous times. they've invaded it again and again due to the fact that they have to protect their citizens from rpg's, bombs and other weapons being sent from there. that was the whole point of the blockade. it didn't work, obviously. if there were no attacks from the west bank, israel would give it up too. they have no need for the west bank. if you think israel would change the borders to what it was like pre-1967, you're crazy. the golan heights is too much of a risk to give up. it overlooks many, many israeli towns. hamas, hezbollah or any other terrorist organization would be sending rockets from there daily. as for that translation of the hamas charter, would a translation from a yale law website do? avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
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Post by puretone on Mar 30, 2009 18:25:14 GMT -5
As long as Israel occupy Palestine there will be resistance and they have every right to resist them. Israel are in the wrong.
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Post by bathqueen on Mar 31, 2009 4:57:49 GMT -5
As long as Israel occupy Palestine there will be resistance and they have every right to resist them. Israel are in the wrong. Israel in the wrong.....? 30\03\09 - JUST YESTERDAY! Ehua Olmert - israel's prime minister Speach: "The conclusion is clear - 2 countries for 2 nations. No alternative" As long as Hamas keeps proving that it shall turn Palestine to a huge base fighting israel (Just like they turned gaza into) There will be Occupation. Hamas are in the wrong.
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Post by NYR on Mar 31, 2009 12:55:44 GMT -5
As long as Israel occupy Palestine there will be resistance and they have every right to resist them. Israel are in the wrong. you're oversimplifying things to an ridiculously ignorant extent. both sides are guilty of doing things that cannot be changed. we need to look at recent history and how we can rectify the situation rather than just blame one side. israel isn't going anywhere, so let's try and find peace instead of destroying the other off the face of the earth.
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Post by Superguiller. on Apr 2, 2009 9:15:48 GMT -5
The thing about religious people is they think they HAVE to do this and that because god told them. I say burn the fucking war manuals and you got peace.
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Post by halftheworld on Apr 2, 2009 9:47:11 GMT -5
As long as Israel occupy Palestine there will be resistance and they have every right to resist them. Israel are in the wrong. Israel in the wrong.....? 30\03\09 - JUST YESTERDAY! Ehua Olmert - israel's prime minister Speach: "The conclusion is clear - 2 countries for 2 nations. No alternative" As long as Hamas keeps proving that it shall turn Palestine to a huge base fighting israel (Just like they turned gaza into) There will be Occupation. Hamas are in the wrong. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-new-foreign-minister-dismisses-twostate-solution-1660017.htmlobviously his foreign minister has a different opinion. what an arsehole.
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Post by bathqueen on Apr 2, 2009 14:20:16 GMT -5
FIRST OFF, Let me tell u something about the foreign minister. he was suspected since the lections about some big money deal, and he is being questiond in the police these days. everyone predicts that in may this man would be no minister. this was known obivously to The prime minister who gave him the job in order to win his support, knowing he would be out in 1 month. Obviously no1 would be that stupid to put israels most racist politician, as a foreign minister! No one gives a f**k about him at the end of that day,HES IRRELEVANT. SECOND, dont know about this translation, but i can tell you from the original news about that in hebrew, that this is way out of contact, Lieberman has claimed many times that he also believes that 2 countries are the idial solution (obviously not becuase he cares about palestinians, he just wants them in their own country and not in his). What he says here, is that the odds for that to happen the near future are very low, and anyone expectin peace is very wrong. which is a sad claim but..also very realistic
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Post by halftheworld on Apr 2, 2009 20:24:01 GMT -5
FIRST OFF, Let me tell u something about the foreign minister. he was suspected since the lections about some big money deal, and he is being questiond in the police these days. everyone predicts that in may this man would be no minister. this was known obivously to The prime minister who gave him the job in order to win his support, knowing he would be out in 1 month. Obviously no1 would be that stupid to put israels most racist politician, as a foreign minister! No one gives a f**k about him at the end of that day,HES IRRELEVANT. SECOND, dont know about this translation, but i can tell you from the original news about that in hebrew, that this is way out of contact, Lieberman has claimed many times that he also believes that 2 countries are the idial solution (obviously not becuase he cares about palestinians, he just wants them in their own country and not in his). What he says here, is that the odds for that to happen the near future are very low, and anyone expectin peace is very wrong. which is a sad claim but..also very realistic to SECOND: common, you entitled him as israels most racist politician - so we don't need to debate about any translation. i guess we could find find some more explicit quotes. see, i just can understand both sides. i can understand israelis living in fear and being upset about hamas missiles and i can understand palestines being upset about living a shit life and israli bombs (and seriously, no matter how many flyers they hand out...). we could debate ages about who started what, we will not find THE guilty party. in my opinion the only solution is: start negociating without any but one precondition: we all have to live here in a peaceful environment. now, i am not naive to believe that palestines and israelis will live together in one country - so the two state solution is not debatable. in general i can just support nyrs words: it lacks a palestine nelson mandela, but i think it also lacks an understanding in israel about the palestinian situation. they just see the rockets (wich i can understand). but sometimes you have to leave emotions behind. unfortunately the past elections in israel have not been a sign for peace.
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Post by bathqueen on Apr 5, 2009 4:55:12 GMT -5
we could debate ages about who started what, we will not find THE guilty party. I wasnt debating about who STARTED it, i was debating about whos not ENDING it, and that, is the Hamas, who refuse to put down the weapon and start talking.
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Post by halftheworld on Apr 5, 2009 13:40:36 GMT -5
I wasnt debating about who STARTED it, i was debating about whos not ENDING it, and that, is the Hamas, who refuse to put down the weapon and start talking. wich is of course the same debate.
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Post by bathqueen on Apr 5, 2009 14:14:23 GMT -5
I wasnt debating about who STARTED it, i was debating about whos not ENDING it, and that, is the Hamas, who refuse to put down the weapon and start talking. wich is of course the same debate. So wrong. Lets say ive threw you out of your house and settled there. i'm the bad guy, my fault. lets say you stayed outside and started throw stones at me, and now i want to leave and give u back your house, but im not gonna leave it, if i know that when i'll walk out of the door i'll get a stone in my face! ofcourse i would rather stay inside where i'll be safe. still my fault..? no, i'm dying to leave the house, but you wont let me...
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Post by halftheworld on Apr 8, 2009 18:10:57 GMT -5
wich is of course the same debate. So wrong. Lets say ive threw you out of your house and settled there. i'm the bad guy, my fault. lets say you stayed outside and started throw stones at me, and now i want to leave and give u back your house, but im not gonna leave it, if i know that when i'll walk out of the door i'll get a stone in my face! ofcourse i would rather stay inside where i'll be safe. still my fault..? no, i'm dying to leave the house, but you wont let me... course it's the same. i could still argue you threw me out of the house and i got the right to throw rocks at you - the fact that you stay only proofs "my" point. it's a shit debate that doesn't help anybody, besides the people who don't want peace. and those exist on both sides. in israel those people are convinced that this conflict could be solved by sheer military power and the palestinian radicals like the idea of dying for their freedom. besides that, your example does not quite fit the situation in those settlements... i bet those soldiers who defend the villages could also provide a safe evacuation.
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Post by bathqueen on Apr 10, 2009 9:29:28 GMT -5
So wrong. Lets say ive threw you out of your house and settled there. i'm the bad guy, my fault. lets say you stayed outside and started throw stones at me, and now i want to leave and give u back your house, but im not gonna leave it, if i know that when i'll walk out of the door i'll get a stone in my face! ofcourse i would rather stay inside where i'll be safe. still my fault..? no, i'm dying to leave the house, but you wont let me... course it's the same. i could still argue you threw me out of the house and i got the right to throw rocks at you - the fact that you stay only proofs "my" point. it's a shit debate that doesn't help anybody, besides the people who don't want peace. and those exist on both sides. in israel those people are convinced that this conflict could be solved by sheer military power and the palestinian radicals like the idea of dying for their freedom. besides that, your example does not quite fit the situation in those settlements... i bet those soldiers who defend the villages could also provide a safe evacuation. My examply fits perfectly, cos what u didnt understood was that not only that i want to be evacuated safely, i also want to be safe when i am OUT OF THERE. thats what happend in gaza - Soldiers evacuated all of gazas people safely. what did israel get? bombs on south israel from gaza. wheres the logic in doin the same thing in the west bank and gettin bombs in north israel from there aswell? And no one in israel Believes that the military can solve that problem after that operation in janaury, even those whod like to believe.......noone can fight a garrila force...
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Post by Jazzvi on Jul 15, 2009 16:00:58 GMT -5
Page last updated at 15:00 GMT, Wednesday, 15 July 2009 16:00 UK Israel soldiers speak out on Gaza A group of soldiers who took part in Israel's assault in Gaza say widespread abuses were committed against civilians under "permissive" rules of engagement. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8149464.stm
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Post by thechemist on Jul 16, 2009 6:42:20 GMT -5
As long as Israel occupy Palestine there will be resistance and they have every right to resist them. Israel are in the wrong. No, I believe Israel is an independent nation. I don't know of a country called Palestine. Wasn't there a UN Charter about 60 years ago making it a country? How do you "occupy" your own nation. You've got a problem with that charter? Take it to the courts. In lieu of that, your freedom fighters will get killed when they target civilians. And I love that "prove it" argument of the left. Especially, when the proof wasn't good enough because it was translated from Arabic. The idiot won't believe it until he can read it in it's original form. So until he gets an advanced degree in Arabic, he'll keep his head in the sand. Classic argument.
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Post by thechemist on Jul 16, 2009 6:50:30 GMT -5
What does Hamas want? Peace and security for their people or dead Israeli's? Hmmm... tough question. Let's look at some recent history:
Israel turns over a nice chunk of land over to Hamas. A lot of industry, infastructure, agriculture, beautiful Medditeranean resort area. Does Hamas use that a a building board for a productive society? Do they join the world of peaceful nations? Use the $MILLIONS the west gives them to maintain a peaceful settlement? NO. Of course not. They turn it into a shithole because all they want to do is use it as a launching pad to kill Israeli's.
Gaza's a shithole because it's occupied by terrorists. The "refugee camps" are shitholes after 60 years because they're occupied by terrorists. The entire middle east is a shithole because it's occupied by terrorists and their "moderate" enablers.
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