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Post by sfsorrow on Dec 5, 2017 14:21:57 GMT -5
In all fairness, there is a difference between covering other music and having it written for you by corporate-employed staff members. I'm not saying one is better than the other but it's not an equal comparison.
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Post by ninestonecowboy on Dec 5, 2017 17:57:58 GMT -5
From his very firm stance on Liams album having some songs co-written and 2 written by others, does this mean Noely G is not a fan of the king? And if Liam can't claim "ownership" of As You Were as he says then maybe Noels no.1 record could be in jeopardy because he contributed less to DBTT than Liam did to As You Were. You would have a point if DBTT was a solo record but it's not...so you don't.
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Post by spaneli on Dec 5, 2017 20:15:40 GMT -5
Two quotes from John Wayne: “With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so. But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.” “I’ve directed two pictures, and I gave the blacks their proper position. I had a black slave in The Alamo, and I had a correct number of blacks in The Green Berets. If it’s supposed to be a black character, naturally I use a black actor. But I don’t go so far as hunting for positions for them. I think the Hollywood studios are carrying their tokenism a little too far. …” At best, they are racially insensitive remarks. This was also post-civil Rights. If the first quote had been followed by "...which is why the Civil Rights movement can't succeed without ensuring black Americans can get unrestricted access to the educational and financial resources that were unlawfully denied to them despite being full-fledged American citizens for decades", it might just work. "White supremacy" in this case seems to mean "majority rule" rather than "nature-mandated racial hierarchy". The second one is artlessly stated, but he's basically arguing for proportional representation, which is contentious but not racist. I'm a Hispanic in the US, and while I like seeing my culture represented in the mainstream, tokenism doesn't do me any favors. I'm not a huge John Wayne fan, but he never struck me as consciously, maliciously racist. "He was a man of his time" is an excuse that gets trotted out a lot to defend out heroes of yesteryear, but I think it applies here, at least as far as the uncouth way he expressed his ideas goes. Imo, I think you're definitely misinterpreting white supremacy. Stating that blacks haven't been smart enough to control their own destiny has been an excuse since antebellum. You can go to pro-slavery tracts from the 1850's and find these exact quotes. This is straight out of white man's burden. In the second quote, Wayne isn't advocating against tokenism. Imo, that's a complete misreading. He's saying that there are "certain" roles that blacks are suited for (i.e. slaves roles, servants, and butlers, common roles for blacks in the early days of cinema, but by 1971, the time of the interview, had been completely and utterly done way with), while there are others for whites. Their "proper" position? A "correct" number? There's a great quote from D.L. Hughley that says, "Any white guy who's counting how many black people have been in their house is a racist." (note, that's a joke). In the end, Wayne is hiding behind tokenism. Because the real question that has to be asked from the above interview, is what are the roles that aren't suitable for blacks? What is the correct number of blacks on a John Wayne film? Note: I went to Wayne's imdb to find the "black roles" in movies he's directed (he directed 3). He only casted 1 black person in a main cast (and I count main cast as up to 15 actors). To Wayne, their "proper" number was 1. Lastly, I don't even know what the term "maliciously" racist means. If you mean, that he never killed or acted violently toward someone of color, or we don't have recordings of him saying the "n" word, I guess he wasn't "maliciously" racist. But not being violent doesn't make you a man of your time. Wayne was a racist. Wayne consciously decided not to give actors jobs based on the color of their skin, thereby stunting careers. He believed in white supremacy, and clearly the mental and problem solving inferiority of blacks. I love John Wayne's films, everything from the Quiet Man to True Git, hell, even the Shootist, but the above quotes are quite frankly inexcusable and require and very lenient interpretation of them to even make them "passable." For reference, other quotes from him: "I don't feel guilty about the fact that five or 10 generations ago these people were slaves. Now, I'm not condoning slavery. It's just a fact of life, like the kid who gets infantile paralysis and has to wear braces so he can't play football with the rest of us." "We can't all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks."
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Post by yeayeayeah on Dec 6, 2017 0:15:09 GMT -5
Noel claimed Liam cant claim ownership of his album. Liam wrote more songs for AYW than Noel did for DBTT. So can Noel claim ownership of DBTT? Well he wrote the most important parts : the singles, the best tracks and co-produced the thing. Remove all the LAG tunes and here is what you got, only from the songs we know were completed during this session. 1. "Lord Dont Slow Me Down" 2. "Mucky Fingers" 3. "Lyla" 4. "The Importance of Being Idle" 5. "Stop the Clocks" 6. "Sittin' Here in Silence (On My Own)" 7. "Part of the Queue" 8. "Record Machine" 9. "Can You See It Now" 10. "Let There Be Love" Would have made a pretty good if not better DBTT, but they made room for other songwriters. And when i say they, I mean Noel. I suppose Liam had much less say in the production of his own record than Noel had with DBTT. He was basically crafting all Oasis records, giving the producer hints to where the record should go. It's always debatable of course. But i think you took the wrong example here. I remember loving DBTT when it came out but it's really probably the worst Oasis period. Only great song was TIOBI.
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Post by Mean Mrs. Mustard on Dec 6, 2017 0:43:15 GMT -5
Noel claimed Liam cant claim ownership of his album. Liam wrote more songs for AYW than Noel did for DBTT. So can Noel claim ownership of DBTT? I'm fairly sure DBTT was an album by the BAND (hint hint) Oasis, not solo artist Noel.
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Post by mancraider on Dec 6, 2017 1:25:06 GMT -5
^^ not that it matters since Noel's original statement is a load of bollock anyway.
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Post by andymorris on Dec 6, 2017 3:13:48 GMT -5
Well he wrote the most important parts : the singles, the best tracks and co-produced the thing. Remove all the LAG tunes and here is what you got, only from the songs we know were completed during this session. 1. "Lord Dont Slow Me Down" 2. "Mucky Fingers" 3. "Lyla" 4. "The Importance of Being Idle" 5. "Stop the Clocks" 6. "Sittin' Here in Silence (On My Own)" 7. "Part of the Queue" 8. "Record Machine" 9. "Can You See It Now" 10. "Let There Be Love" Would have made a pretty good if not better DBTT, but they made room for other songwriters. And when i say they, I mean Noel. I suppose Liam had much less say in the production of his own record than Noel had with DBTT. He was basically crafting all Oasis records, giving the producer hints to where the record should go. It's always debatable of course. But i think you took the wrong example here. I remember loving DBTT when it came out but it's really probably the worst Oasis period. Only great song was TIOBI. I have a soft spot for every Oasis record. Sure it's not their best, but i like that acoustic rock approach of DBTT. And i fucking love Lord Dont Slow Me Down, Mucky Fingers and The Importance of Being Idle. Also, the "demo" of Record Machine from those sessions is the best version we have of that song. Really way better than the one on NGHFB. I wouldn't mind hearing Boy With The Blues from that session as well, if it is different fro the one that is on DOYS. Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records.
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Post by GlastoEls on Dec 6, 2017 9:02:50 GMT -5
I remember loving DBTT when it came out but it's really probably the worst Oasis period. Only great song was TIOBI. Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records. This x 1,000,000. How many Noel written, Liam sung tracks are on the last three albums combined? Seven TOTAL? It’s such a shame. HC THT, SCYHO DBTT L, LTBL DOYS BIU, TT, TSOTL
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Post by tomlivesforever on Dec 6, 2017 9:26:14 GMT -5
I remember loving DBTT when it came out but it's really probably the worst Oasis period. Only great song was TIOBI. I have a soft spot for every Oasis record. Sure it's not their best, but i like that acoustic rock approach of DBTT. And i fucking love Lord Dont Slow Me Down, Mucky Fingers and The Importance of Being Idle. Also, the "demo" of Record Machine from those sessions is the best version we have of that song. Really way better than the one on NGHFB. I wouldn't mind hearing Boy With The Blues from that session as well, if it is different fro the one that is on DOYS. Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records.What evidence is there to suggest Noel was full of brilliant songs at this point in his career? He's acknowledged he lacked inspiration after Be Here Now and I don't see much evidence that he had enough to produce 10 or 12 songs of outstanding quality through SOTSOG, HC and DBTT.
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Post by andymorris on Dec 6, 2017 9:47:22 GMT -5
I have a soft spot for every Oasis record. Sure it's not their best, but i like that acoustic rock approach of DBTT. And i fucking love Lord Dont Slow Me Down, Mucky Fingers and The Importance of Being Idle. Also, the "demo" of Record Machine from those sessions is the best version we have of that song. Really way better than the one on NGHFB. I wouldn't mind hearing Boy With The Blues from that session as well, if it is different fro the one that is on DOYS. Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records.What evidence is there to suggest Noel was full of brilliant songs at this point in his career? He's acknowledged he lacked inspiration after Be Here Now and I don't see much evidence that he had enough to produce 10 or 12 songs of outstanding quality through SOTSOG, HC and DBTT. Well remove Little James from SOTSOG, add Let's All Make Believe. What do you have ? A better record. Remove the LAG tunes from HC, DBTT, and DOYS. The best bulk of tunes are still there. For DBTT i listed a pretty strong record with only Noel tunes. For DOYS, Freaky Teeth and Come On Outside were left off, and probably others we dont know about. The only debatable one would be HC because of Songbird and Different Cloud. Even this one could have worked only with Solve My Mystery, that was left out because Noel wanted it to sound like Blur's Tender, and Idler's Dream. Produced differently, those songs had potential. LAG tunes are pretty forgettable to be honest. They did not elevate the quality of the records, so removed, they certainly don't lower it. The lack of inspiration Noel mentionned back then is from BHN to HC, not after that. And is not due to song quantity i think, it's due to the direction to give the band. He's always had tunes left behind probably at least as good as A Bell Will Ring or Keep the Dream Alive, which are poor attempts at trying to sound like Noel. Noel didn't have the songs he needed to send Oasis in a more experimental direction. But the quantity was there.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Dec 6, 2017 10:03:42 GMT -5
What evidence is there to suggest Noel was full of brilliant songs at this point in his career? He's acknowledged he lacked inspiration after Be Here Now and I don't see much evidence that he had enough to produce 10 or 12 songs of outstanding quality through SOTSOG, HC and DBTT. Well remove Little James from SOTSOG, add Let's All Make Believe. What do you have ? A better record. Remove the LAG tunes from HC, DBTT, and DOYS. The best bulk of tunes are still there. For DBTT i listed a pretty strong record with only Noel tunes. For DOYS, Freaky Teeth and Come On Outside were left off, and probably others we dont know about. The only debatable one would be HC because of Songbird and Different Cloud. Even this one could have worked only with Solve My Mystery, that was left out because Noel wanted it to sound like Blur's Tender, and Idler's Dream. Produced differently, those songs had potential. LAG tunes are pretty forgettable to be honest. They did not elevate the quality of the records, so removed, they certainly don't lower it. The lack of inspiration Noel mentionned back then is from BHN to HC, not after that. And is not due to song quantity i think, it's due to the direction to give the band. He's always had tunes left behind probably at least as good as A Bell Will Ring or Keep the Dream Alive, which are poor attempts at trying to sound like Noel. Noel didn't have the songs he needed to send Oasis in a more experimental direction. But the quantity was there. But you're going to remove I Can See A Liar and PYMWYMI right? Two songs Noel called "shit" on release. HC had She is Love, Force of Nature and PAITM. DBTT included a song that was 5 years old already. Noel of course had great moments on all those albums but there is nothing to suggest to me he was in excellent form. I don't think if he was spewing out great songs he wouldn't have had them on there I also don't think Gem and Andy would have expected to stand in his way if they were hearing brilliant tunes.
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Post by andymorris on Dec 6, 2017 11:31:12 GMT -5
But you're going to remove I Can See A Liar and PYMWYMI right? Two songs Noel called "shit" on release. HC had She is Love, Force of Nature and PAITM. DBTT included a song that was 5 years old already. Noel of course had great moments on all those albums but there is nothing to suggest to me he was in excellent form. I don't think if he was spewing out great songs he wouldn't have had them on there I also don't think Gem and Andy would have expected to stand in his way if they were hearing brilliant tunes. Not saying he was in excellent form from BHN to HC. He regained songwriting greatness on DBTT to me, which is the album that really dont need LAG tunes. DOYS also, to some extent, i believe, could have been made without those guys, Dream On a couple other from his first solo album were there. Noel opened to other songwriters because he was doubting his songwriting, not because he did not have the songs. As for songs age, it doesn't matter, what matter is: does it fit.
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Post by sfsorrow on Dec 6, 2017 11:51:14 GMT -5
But you're going to remove I Can See A Liar and PYMWYMI right? Two songs Noel called "shit" on release. HC had She is Love, Force of Nature and PAITM. DBTT included a song that was 5 years old already. Noel of course had great moments on all those albums but there is nothing to suggest to me he was in excellent form. I don't think if he was spewing out great songs he wouldn't have had them on there I also don't think Gem and Andy would have expected to stand in his way if they were hearing brilliant tunes. Not saying he was in excellent form from BHN to HC. He regained songwriting greatness on DBTT to me, which is the album that really dont need LAG tunes. DOYS also, to some extent, i believe, could have been made without those guys, Dream On a couple other from his first solo album were there. Noel opened to other songwriters because he was doubting his songwriting, not because he did not have the songs. As for songs age, it doesn't matter, what matter is: does it fit. I agree. Noel had enough songs between 2002-2008 to fill three albums worth of songs that were all his own. And while they may not have all been up to his usual standard, many of them were above the tracks that ended up on those albums, in my view. I think the main problem with Mk II is the lack of direction. I don't think they really wanted to know what kind of band they wanted to be. Or, maybe, Noel did but he didn't want the hassle of fighting for it.
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Post by mancraider on Dec 6, 2017 12:21:10 GMT -5
By the time it happened Liam and Noel were Oasis. He should have let Liam write, and supported him to develop. Liam has good ideas but lacks the musicianship to fully develop them. There own ego's stopped oasis being what it could of been. And yes it also made them what they were.
The others I agree were pointless.
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Post by wallofass on Dec 6, 2017 12:30:35 GMT -5
Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records. This x 1,000,000. How many Noel written, Liam sung tracks are on the last three albums combined? Seven TOTAL? It’s such a shame. HC THT, SCYHO DBTT L, LTBL DOYS BIU, TT, TSOTL Pretty much all the best from each album too. Barring maybe Importantance Of Being Idle.
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Post by GlastoEls on Dec 6, 2017 14:10:32 GMT -5
This x 1,000,000. How many Noel written, Liam sung tracks are on the last three albums combined? Seven TOTAL? It’s such a shame. HC THT, SCYHO DBTT L, LTBL DOYS BIU, TT, TSOTL Pretty much all the best from each album too. Barring maybe Importantance Of Being Idle. Easily the best in my opinion.
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Post by fabulousbakers on Dec 6, 2017 19:09:35 GMT -5
You're only entitled to claim a number one album if you wrote most of it?
I've contacted the Estate of Frank Sintra with this news and they're currently boxing up all his framed gold records and throwing them in a skip.
Apple records have been asked to return the Gold disc for the Beatles UK number one album Live At The BBC but they've said they can't find it and they think Ringo has it hanging in his toilet at home.
Police were called to Bob Dylan's house to recover his gold disc for the Shadows In The Night album but said there only seemed to be an old whino living there who spoke mystical gibberish and refused to let them in. They said last time they picked that wacko up off the streets the police Chief let him go so they didn't bother this time.
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Post by ricardogce on Dec 6, 2017 19:58:02 GMT -5
You're only entitled to claim a number one album if you wrote most of it? I've contacted the Estate of Frank Sintra with this news and they're currently boxing up all his framed gold records and throwing them in a skip. Apple records have been asked to return the Gold disc for the Beatles UK number one album Live At The BBC but they've said they can't find it and they think Ringo has it hanging in his toilet at home.Police were called to Bob Dylan's house to recover his gold disc for the Shadows In The Night album but said there only seemed to be an old whino living there who spoke mystical gibberish and refused to let them in. They said last time they picked that wacko up off the streets the police Chief let him go so they didn't bother this time. Not only that, six of 14 tracks on Please, Please Me are covers. Not even songs written specifically for the band, but covers! Same ratio for With The Beatles. The Beatles are a fraud, clearly.
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Post by sfsorrow on Dec 6, 2017 20:56:36 GMT -5
Again, there is a difference between an artist choosing a song to cover, and an artist who has a team write them songs.
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Post by fabulousbakers on Dec 6, 2017 21:17:32 GMT -5
Again, there is a difference between an artist choosing a song to cover, and an artist who has a team write them songs. Yes, in one case the artist is choosing to cover their selection of previously recorded songs and in the other case the artist is choosing to cover their selection of previously unrecorded songs. In the first case, the artist can choose songs they know have been popular before - they don't have that benefit when choosing new songs other people have written for them. With that in mind, I would say Liam is more than justified in proudly boasting of having a number one album than an artist who has chosen a heap of old cover songs. Liam selected the songwriters, selected their songs and sang them in his own unique style - in my view he's more than welcome to wave that gold record in everybody's face before he hangs it up in his toilet (preferably in that order). Personally I don't think the charts mean much at all (I've heard some of the awful dross that enters the charts) but it's nice to see both Liam and Noel's recent efforts receiving such public success and I'm not sure why Oasis fans here are trying to take that success away from them by bitching about it. Good on both of them.
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Post by sfsorrow on Dec 6, 2017 21:52:34 GMT -5
Again, there is a difference between an artist choosing a song to cover, and an artist who has a team write them songs. Yes, in one case the artist is choosing to cover their selection of previously recorded songs and in the other case the artist is choosing to cover their selection of previously unrecorded songs. In the first case, the artist can choose songs they know have been popular before - they don't have that benefit when choosing new songs other people have written for them. With that in mind, I would say Liam is more than justified in proudly boasting of having a number one album than an artist who has chosen a heap of old cover songs. Liam selected the songwriters, selected their songs and sang them in his own unique style - in my view he's more than welcome to wave that gold record in everybody's face before he hangs it up in his toilet (preferably in that order). There's another way to look at the difference between the two too. When someone covers a song, it can be a case of an artist creatively re-interpreting a work, putting their own touch on it so that it becomes something entirely different than what it once was, as in the case of, say, The Beatles' Twist and Shout, Nilsson sings Newman, Sid Vicious's My Way, or the many singers who re-interpreted jazz standards. When someone has a team write them songs, it can be a case where a corporation wants to ensure it makes a profit so it places writers-for-hire on a project with the sole goal of creating a commercially viable work, as is the case of say, most of the output of Britney Spears, Justin Bieber, Demi Lovato (though they are all generally given some kind of writing credit on each song). Anyway, we can both construct the differences to better suit our argument. At the end of the day, yes, of course, Liam can do whatever he wants.
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Post by fabulousbakers on Dec 6, 2017 22:34:42 GMT -5
...When someone has a team write them songs, it can be a case where a corporation wants to ensure it makes a profit so it places writers-for-hire on a project with the sole goal of creating a commercially viable work, as is the case of say, most of the output of Britney Spears, Justin Bieber, Demi Lovato... I know exactly what you mean but I don't think Liam Gallagher is part of the mindless corporate machine the way that empty artists Spears or Bieber or Smiley Virus (or whatever her name is) are.
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Post by The Spider And The Fly on Dec 7, 2017 0:52:35 GMT -5
Noel claimed Liam cant claim ownership of his album. Liam wrote more songs for AYW than Noel did for DBTT. So can Noel claim ownership of DBTT? Noel just wrote the best ones
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Post by AdidasNG72 on Dec 7, 2017 2:11:43 GMT -5
I have a soft spot for every Oasis record. Sure it's not their best, but i like that acoustic rock approach of DBTT. And i fucking love Lord Dont Slow Me Down, Mucky Fingers and The Importance of Being Idle. Also, the "demo" of Record Machine from those sessions is the best version we have of that song. Really way better than the one on NGHFB. I wouldn't mind hearing Boy With The Blues from that session as well, if it is different fro the one that is on DOYS. Looking back on it, Noel should have never opened to other songwriters, it really downgraded the quality of Oasis records.What evidence is there to suggest Noel was full of brilliant songs at this point in his career? He's acknowledged he lacked inspiration after Be Here Now and I don't see much evidence that he had enough to produce 10 or 12 songs of outstanding quality through SOTSOG, HC and DBTT. Yes, agreed. The quality of the songs during Oasis Mk2 was pretty dismal overall - including Noel's tracks. I've said before that during the entire Mk2 era, there is probably enough material there for just one fairly decent album.
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Post by Lennon2217 on Dec 7, 2017 2:13:45 GMT -5
What evidence is there to suggest Noel was full of brilliant songs at this point in his career? He's acknowledged he lacked inspiration after Be Here Now and I don't see much evidence that he had enough to produce 10 or 12 songs of outstanding quality through SOTSOG, HC and DBTT. Yes, agreed. The quality of the songs during Oasis Mk2 was pretty dismal overall - including Noel's tracks. I've said before that during the entire Mk2 era, there is probably enough material there for just one fairly decent album. Oasis needed an extended break after the BHN tour. 2001 or 2002 would have been ideal. Granted at the time all I fucking wanted was album #4. Little did I know the band was falling apart and Noel lost his songwriting mojo for half a decade.
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