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Post by funhouse on Oct 18, 2017 14:40:28 GMT -5
I don't completely know where I stand when it comes to communism, but I know this: When you're debating someone, the proper way is too read/listen to the other perons arguments before responding/asking the same question for the 58th time in a row. As a casual reader of this page (do I have a life? Good guestion) I find it extremely tiring trying to follow jordan's way of "debating". To be honest TheEscapist, I don't know why you're still trying. Oh but The Escapist asking me the same question that has nothing to do with what IM talking about over and over again is okay? Get over yourself He answers your arguments, while you seem to almost deliberately ignore his answers. Like the Cuba thing. I don't know if he's explained 3 or 4 times that it's a horrible situation, but you repeatedly went back to it saying "how can you defend this?" You don't have to agree that Cuba is no real communist country, but don't try and misconstrue his answers, it's just bad debating. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:43:42 GMT -5
Oh but The Escapist asking me the same question that has nothing to do with what IM talking about over and over again is okay? Get over yourself He answers your arguments, while you seem to almost deliberately ignore his answers. Like the Cuba thing. I don't know if he's explained 3 or 4 times that it's a horrible situation, but you repeatedly went back to it saying "how can you defend this?" You don't have to agree that Cuba is no real communist country, but don't try and misconstrue his answers, it's just bad debating. I’m not misconstruing anything. He doesn’t have a grasp on reality and thinks I don’t know what a communist country is when we’re talking about historically communist countries. He’s denying facts, not me. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 14:44:37 GMT -5
He answers your arguments, while you seem to almost deliberately ignore his answers. Like the Cuba thing. I don't know if he's explained 3 or 4 times that it's a horrible situation, but you repeatedly went back to it saying "how can you defend this?" You don't have to agree that Cuba is no real communist country, but don't try and misconstrue his answers, it's just bad debating. I’m not misconstruing anything. He doesn’t have a grasp on reality and thinks I don’t know what a communist country is when we’re talking about historically communist countries. He’s denying facts, not me. You clearly don't know what a communist society is. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:45:05 GMT -5
Oh but The Escapist asking me the same question that has nothing to do with what IM talking about over and over again is okay? Get over yourself 1) Your entire argument is based on the idea that societies such as Cuba or North Korea are communist. 2) My response is that if you read communist ideology, be it Marx or Engels or Bakunin or Kropotkin or Chomsky or Zizek or anyone, or if you look at what communist communities in real life or online believe, you can see that is is the belief in a classless, stateless society where workers control production and power is decentralised to communities. 3) If you look at the histories of those countries, you will see that not once did any of them try to implement any of that ideology. 4) Therefore, we cannot consider them in any meaningful way communist. 5) Therefore, your argument doesn't work. Those countries possessed communist ideals and then branched off into their own thing. To deny the influence of communism in those countries is deceptive and disrespectful to those affected by those regimes |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 14:46:43 GMT -5
I remember doing a presentation about communism in school a few years ago but I've forgotten almost everything by now. But I'm quite sure the books mentioned that Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. weren't really communist countries, at least the way communism is supposed to be...
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 14:47:49 GMT -5
1) Your entire argument is based on the idea that societies such as Cuba or North Korea are communist. 2) My response is that if you read communist ideology, be it Marx or Engels or Bakunin or Kropotkin or Chomsky or Zizek or anyone, or if you look at what communist communities in real life or online believe, you can see that is is the belief in a classless, stateless society where workers control production and power is decentralised to communities. 3) If you look at the histories of those countries, you will see that not once did any of them try to implement any of that ideology. 4) Therefore, we cannot consider them in any meaningful way communist. 5) Therefore, your argument doesn't work. and then branched off into their own thing. To deny the influence of communism in those countries is deceptive and disrespectful to those affected by those regimes When? Where? This is the question I keep asking you because your whole argument falls apart when you don't answer it. Can you give any examples of those countries showing communist ideals? When did any of their actions show any desire to move towards a classless, stateless society based on worker's control of production? |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:48:07 GMT -5
I remember doing a presentation about communism in school a few years ago but I've forgotten almost everything by now. But I'm quite sure the books mentioned that Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. weren't really communist countries, at least the way communism is supposed to be... Don’t question my knowledge on the subject if you admit you don’t know for sure what we’re talking about. We’re just debating |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 14:49:49 GMT -5
I remember doing a presentation about communism in school a few years ago but I've forgotten almost everything by now. But I'm quite sure the books mentioned that Soviet Union, Cuba, etc. weren't really communist countries, at least the way communism is supposed to be... Don’t question my knowledge on the subject if you admit you don’t know for sure what we’re talking about. We’re just debating We're still waiting for any examples of these countries trying to achieve communism.... |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:50:34 GMT -5
Those countries possessed communist ideals and then branched off into their own thing. To deny the influence of communism in those countries is deceptive and disrespectful to those affected by those regimes When? Where? This is the question I keep asking you because your whole argument falls apart when you don't answer it. Can you give any examples of those countries showing communist ideals? When did any of their actions show any desire to move towards a classless, stateless society based on worker's control of production? Maoism alone is based of the ideals of Mao and his partners in the Chinese Communist Party. Good enough example for you? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2017 14:52:22 GMT -5
Oh and one thing. History books are written by the winners. They're always full of propaganda that people believe.
You shouldn't trust everything.
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 14:53:25 GMT -5
When? Where? This is the question I keep asking you because your whole argument falls apart when you don't answer it. Can you give any examples of those countries showing communist ideals? When did any of their actions show any desire to move towards a classless, stateless society based on worker's control of production? Maoism alone is based of the ideals of Mao and his partners in the Chinese Communist Party. Good enough example for you? No, for the same reason that the Cuban constitution going "Yeah, we're definitely communist" isn't. I'm not asking for words, I'm not asking for a flag or a slogan, I'm asking for an example of any of these countries trying to achieve a classless society without the state based on worker's control of production? An EXAMPLE. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:54:11 GMT -5
Oh and one thing. History books are written by the winners. They're always full of propaganda that people believe. You shouldn't trust everything. Then why do you trust when people say positive things about communism? Can’t you see that any county with a hint of it in their system are miserable? |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Oct 18, 2017 14:54:34 GMT -5
Escapist has carefully explained his answers and provided information and sources to back them up. You have done none of these things except to repeat beliefs TheEscapist has already through reasoned argument shown to be unsound.
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 14:54:35 GMT -5
Oh and one thing. History books are written by the winners. They're always full of propaganda that people believe. You shouldn't trust everything. If you just change the word "communism" to "fascism", it'd be fine. It just blatantly wasn't communism. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 14:55:51 GMT -5
Maoism alone is based of the ideals of Mao and his partners in the Chinese Communist Party. Good enough example for you? No, for the same reason that the Cuban constitution going "Yeah, we're definitely communist" isn't. I'm not asking for words, I'm not asking for a flag or a slogan, I'm asking for an example of any of these countries trying to achieve a classless society without the state based on worker's control of production? An EXAMPLE. No example I give can be good enough for you so why bother asking in the first place? You KNOW you’re right and won’t entertain any other thoughts. I’m willing to debate things. You’re stubborn |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Oct 18, 2017 14:56:06 GMT -5
When? Where? This is the question I keep asking you because your whole argument falls apart when you don't answer it. Can you give any examples of those countries showing communist ideals? When did any of their actions show any desire to move towards a classless, stateless society based on worker's control of production? Maoism alone is based of the ideals of Mao and his partners in the Chinese Communist Party. Good enough example for you? What do you think of National Socialism? Label or political system involving socialist principals? |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 15:06:52 GMT -5
No, for the same reason that the Cuban constitution going "Yeah, we're definitely communist" isn't. I'm not asking for words, I'm not asking for a flag or a slogan, I'm asking for an example of any of these countries trying to achieve a classless society without the state based on worker's control of production? An EXAMPLE. No example I give can be good enough for you so why bother asking in the first place? You KNOW you’re right and won’t entertain any other thoughts. I’m willing to debate things. You’re stubborn You don't seem to understand what debating is. If you make an argument, and someone criticises that argument, you defend it. This is your argument: 1) Countries such as North Korea and Cuba are communist. 2) These are horrible countries that have had terrible effects and ruined lives. Conclusion) Therefore, communism is bad for society. My criticism is: 1) Communist ideology is that of a classless, stateless society where workers control production and power is decentralised. 2) The history of those countries reveal that they never once tried to implement this ideology Conclusion) Therefore they cannot be used to criticise communist ideology. In order to show that your conclusion is right, and mine is wrong, you have to show that either every bit of communist literature and thought fro 150 years - including Karl Marx - is wrong, or that those countries DID try to implement communist ideology. You cannot do either, and therefore your argument falls to my criticism. |
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 18, 2017 15:26:13 GMT -5
I'll tell you one thing about him that's communist - he's got no class!  |
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Post by mystoryisgory on Oct 18, 2017 15:29:32 GMT -5
The Escapist, you ever thought about making a guest appearance on Fox News? Sure, it'd be a waste of your time, but I'd love to see footage of you tearing into Tucker Carlson on his own show!  Your arguments are very well articulated and brilliantly thought out. I'll have to disagree with you on one point, though. Trump didn't win the election because of the working class vote. He won it because of racism. There's no doubting that the economic component did play a part in the election, but you cannot ignore the race factor. In 2016 the median income for the nation was $59,000. The average Trump supporter has an income of $72,000 a year. Hardly what you'd call "working class". If the working class had been the main factor, then blacks, Hispanics, and people of other races who are also part of America's working class would've voted for him along with the blue-collar whites. This obviously did not happen. How people vote is not solely dependent on what income people make. It's also dependent on what race they are. It's always been in my experience that the white American people do not care whatsoever that they're being robbed and stolen from wholesale by the rich as long as they can still be superior to racial minorities like myself. It's been this way ever since the American Civil War. Why did the poor southern whites fight for the confederacy? Because they wanted to keep their supremacy over the blacks. It didn't matter to them that they had absolutely nothing and that they were ruled by rich plantation owners who owned all of the wealth as long as whites were the ones in control. Almost nothing has changed in that regard ever since then. It's the rich whites, not plantation owners this time, but people like the Koch brothers who have again bent the poorer whites to their will by promising to fuck over everyone else who isn't white, straight, and Christian. Just like you, I used to subscribe to a pure Marxist interpretation of history that every conflict was class struggle under different guises, repetitive battles between the haves and the have-nots. But the 2016 election and the events in Charlottesville really opened my eyes up to see that racism is a far more powerful force than I could have ever imagined. People want to be superior to others. People want to see other people not like them subjugated, oppressed, tortured, and murdered. People don't so much want to have more wealth than others than to have the feeling that they are superior, that they are in control. And I believe that is the major motivating factor in all conflicts throughout history. Not economics. Economics is just one way to make yourself feel superior. A far easier way is to believe that, because of your birth, because of the color of your skin, you are inherently superior to everyone else. Of course, I accept that my worldview may not be the most accurate picture of how America and the world works. But, as I grew up in the Deep South and was continually subjected to racism because I wasn't white, that's always how it's been in my experience.
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Post by funhouse on Oct 18, 2017 15:31:50 GMT -5
I'll tell you one thing about him that's communist - he's got no class! Is it fair to say you wouldn't give him top marx? Please kill me. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 15:37:01 GMT -5
No example I give can be good enough for you so why bother asking in the first place? You KNOW you’re right and won’t entertain any other thoughts. I’m willing to debate things. You’re stubborn You don't seem to understand what debating is. If you make an argument, and someone criticises that argument, you defend it. This is your argument: 1) Countries such as North Korea and Cuba are communist. 2) These are horrible countries that have had terrible effects and ruined lives. Conclusion) Therefore, communism is bad for society. My criticism is: 1) Communist ideology is that of a classless, stateless society where workers control production and power is decentralised. 2) The history of those countries reveal that they never once tried to implement this ideology Conclusion) Therefore they cannot be used to criticise communist ideology. In order to show that your conclusion is right, and mine is wrong, you have to show that either every bit of communist literature and thought fro 150 years - including Karl Marx - is wrong, or that those countries DID try to implement communist ideology. You cannot do either, and therefore your argument falls to my criticism. No, I don’t. I don’t need to explain why a communist country is communist. This isn’t about the ideology itself. It’s the idea that you can’t accept that countries widely to be accepted are communist are communist. |
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Post by davidjay on Oct 18, 2017 15:42:28 GMT -5
I'm baffled to be honest. Could someone provide me with examples of where communism actually worked, as described in theory? Any attempt to implement it seems to have resulted in the most appalling regimes. I'm genuinely intrigued to read any historical examples. I'm newer to the topic than I should be, but open to learning whatever I can (again rather belatedly, but there we have it). Sure, but one point I'll make quickly - the appalling regimes you reference were not attempts at communism. Like I said, if you look at their histories, you will see immediate opposition to working-class control, decentralised communal power, the abolition of the state, direct democracy etc...all of which are ideas absolutely essential to communism. So, can we give examples of communist societies? Yes! The most famous is Revolutionary Catalonia where for three years workers took control of production, the state was abolished, power was decentralised and a syndicate-based communism was achieved. Production increased almost 50%, new hospitals were built and maintained, a whole new feminist movement was created, education increased, and there was mass solidarity. THAT is communism. Now, why isn't it around today? Well, the irony is it was destroyed by...you guessed it, the soviet union. They destroyed worker control and completely wrecked the area, killing many. For other examples see Mahknovia or the Paris Commune. Thanks. I'll check out all the examples you mention when I get the chance. I don't see how the Soviet Union wasn't an attempt to implement communism though. Does this bring us back to Peterson's counterpoint regarding the Marxists' claim that it "wasn't real communism"? Excuse my slowness on this. On a good day I find the topic challenging but today was awful (long story). |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 15:42:37 GMT -5
I can’t believe people on this forum think communism is a good idea for society
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 15:53:55 GMT -5
No, I don’t. I don’t need to explain why a communist country is communist. This isn’t about the ideology itself. It’s the idea that you can’t accept that countries widely to be accepted are communist are communist. For fuck's sake, all TheEscapist is saying is that those countries are communist only by name, and that their ideologies are all but. You say communism is bad, what you mean is "those countries that say they are communists are bad". What don't you understand about that? You don't seem to understand everyone else's point on this thread when they say "yeah, these countries are bad, but the real communism ideologies are good/interesting". You only seem to be arguing against those countries, and not the real communism's ideologies. It's not because they are "widely accepted" as communist that they are, if I somehow convinced everyone that I can shit gold, and that my name is gold shiter, it doesn't change the fact that I still shit only shit. No I didn’t say that. I’m saying that both those countries that call themselves communist, as well as the ideology, is oppressive and freedom restricting. Those countries call themselves communist, as well as the whole world, yet somehow they’re not communist to you or The Escapist. That doesn’t make any sense |
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Post by jordan71421 on Oct 18, 2017 16:00:13 GMT -5
No I didn’t say that. I’m saying that both those countries that call themselves communist, as well as the ideology, is oppressive and freedom restricting. Those countries call themselves communist, as well as the whole world, yet somehow they’re not communist to you or The Escapist. That doesn’t make any sense Yeah but what don't you understand about the fact that those countries took the word communist and completely changed its meaning, and all we are saying is that the original meaning and ideology is good. I’m also stating that I believe that the ideology and original meaning is not good. Poisonous even |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5