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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Aug 25, 2018 19:54:07 GMT -5
RIP John McCain.
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Post by mystoryisgory on Aug 25, 2018 20:05:34 GMT -5
RIP indeed. I disagreed with him on a great many things, but I have the utmost respect for him, especially in his willingness to stand up to Trump and his cronies, even if McCain didn't go as far as I'd hoped.
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Post by htd78 on Aug 25, 2018 20:05:44 GMT -5
Politics and views aside, he was a great man who served America & fought for what he believed. It saddens me that he probably won’t get his proper recognition from President Bone Spurs. |
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Post by madferitusa2025 on Aug 25, 2018 22:58:08 GMT -5
Trump is in no position to confer any more dignity on John McCain than he already earned.
Whatever your thoughts (I was against it) on the Vietnam war. The North Vietnamese wanted to release him because his father was an admiral. He refused special treatment, and subsequently paid the price and was further tortured while remaining in confinement.
That's true balls of the type most do not possess. RIP Captain McCain. Respect.
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Post by NYR on Aug 26, 2018 22:04:53 GMT -5
John McCain was a stronger and braver man than most in this world could ever be. Though I didn't see eye to eye with him—especially after 2007—I always had nothing but the utmost respect for him. He served with honor and dignity—something that is damn near impossible to find these days.
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Post by funhouse on Aug 27, 2018 4:47:07 GMT -5
Surprised to see the unanimous praise for John McCain. Someone dies and all bad things they did are suddenly erased? Yes, on a human level he seems to have been a good guy, and the fact that he wouldn't go home from Vietnam without his fellow soldiers being released too is a proof of that - a great act of solidarity and humanity. But what did he do later as a politician? A lot of things that honestly would stand in contrast to that action. And for all the talk about "standing up against Trump", he voted in line with his position 83% of the time.
But I guess the thing with Trump is that it occassionally makes liberals look back at the past with rose tinted eyes, even speaking fondly of Bush, which is just distasteful. "Hey, he doesn't like Trump either, join the club kind sir!"
Not trying to speak ill of the dead, just wanted to bring some nuance.
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Post by jordan71421 on Aug 27, 2018 6:02:52 GMT -5
Surprised to see the unanimous praise for John McCain. Someone dies and all bad things they did are suddenly erased? Yes, on a human level he seems to have been a good guy, and the fact that he wouldn't go home from Vietnam without his fellow soldiers being released too is a proof of that - a great act of solidarity and humanity. But what did he do later as a politician? A lot of things that honestly would stand in contrast to that action. And for all the talk about "standing up against Trump", he voted in line with his position 83% of the time. But I guess the thing with Trump is that it occassionally makes liberals look back at the past with rose tinted eyes, even speaking fondly of Bush, which is just distasteful. "Hey, he doesn't like Trump either, join the club kind sir!" Not trying to speak ill of the dead, just wanted to bring some nuance. It’s people showing respect to someone who has passed away, regardless of their political beliefs. Normal people do this. Seriously, is there anyone in your life you agreed with 100% percent? |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Aug 27, 2018 6:21:31 GMT -5
Surprised to see the unanimous praise for John McCain. Someone dies and all bad things they did are suddenly erased? Yes, on a human level he seems to have been a good guy, and the fact that he wouldn't go home from Vietnam without his fellow soldiers being released too is a proof of that - a great act of solidarity and humanity. But what did he do later as a politician? A lot of things that honestly would stand in contrast to that action. And for all the talk about "standing up against Trump", he voted in line with his position 83% of the time. But I guess the thing with Trump is that it occassionally makes liberals look back at the past with rose tinted eyes, even speaking fondly of Bush, which is just distasteful. "Hey, he doesn't like Trump either, join the club kind sir!" Not trying to speak ill of the dead, just wanted to bring some nuance. It’s people showing respect to someone who has passed away, regardless of their political beliefs. Normal people do this. Seriously, is there anyone in your life you agreed with 100% percent? I doubt there is many people any of us has agreed with 100% but even if you did that doesn't mean you shouldn't be honest about them. Take Winston Churchill, national hero over here to many but there are some unsavoury elements to his character and some of the actions he took. Praise and criticise where applicable, there is nothing wrong with attempting to evaluate someone honestly, dead or not. |
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Post by funhouse on Aug 27, 2018 6:29:30 GMT -5
It’s people showing respect to someone who has passed away, regardless of their political beliefs. Normal people do this. Seriously, is there anyone in your life you agreed with 100% percent? I doubt there is many people any of us has agreed with 100% but even if you did that doesn't mean you shouldn't be honest about them. Take Winston Churchill, national hero over here to many but there are some unsavoury elements to his character and some of the actions he took. Praise and criticise where applicable, there is nothing wrong with attempting to evaluate someone honestly, dead or not. Well put. It's obviously not the showing respect part that is slightly bothering me, it's the apparently widespread whitewashing (in my view) of his legacy. |
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Post by The Escapist on Aug 27, 2018 6:46:19 GMT -5
It’s people showing respect to someone who has passed away, regardless of their political beliefs. Normal people do this. Seriously, is there anyone in your life you agreed with 100% percent? I doubt there is many people any of us has agreed with 100% but even if you did that doesn't mean you shouldn't be honest about them. Take Winston Churchill, national hero over here to many but there are some unsavoury elements to his character and some of the actions he took. Praise and criticise where applicable, there is nothing wrong with attempting to evaluate someone honestly, dead or not. Four million people starved to death because of Churchill's policies, he called them beasts and blamed them because they bred too much. Definitely a shade unsavoury. As for McCain I have no doubt he believed in what he did and undoubtedly had courage, but his actions will overshadow that. Sad for those that knew him that he's dead, of course. |
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Post by mancraider on Aug 27, 2018 6:54:30 GMT -5
I doubt there is many people any of us has agreed with 100% but even if you did that doesn't mean you shouldn't be honest about them. Take Winston Churchill, national hero over here to many but there are some unsavoury elements to his character and some of the actions he took. Praise and criticise where applicable, there is nothing wrong with attempting to evaluate someone honestly, dead or not. Four million people starved to death because of Churchill's policies, he called them beasts and blamed them because they bred too much. Definitely a shade unsavoury. As for McCain I have no doubt he believed in what he did and undoubtedly had courage, but his actions will overshadow that. Sad for those that knew him that he's dead, of course. By any standard Churchill was a monster. His crime sheet is extensive, including putting British troops on the streets to attack the British working classes for daring to protest. And there is certainly no love for him in Ireland. Problem is most people only know what they are taught in school, where he is portrayed as the hero that won the war for Britain. |
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Post by matt on Aug 27, 2018 8:39:48 GMT -5
I think Westminster’s largely a dearth of political decency and sense, with both Labour and Tories as stupid as each other. But if I had to vote for a leader in Westminster, it would be Caroline Lucas. She’s everything that tool Jeremy Corbyn should be.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Aug 27, 2018 8:41:48 GMT -5
If I had to vote for a leader in Westminster, it would be Caroline Lucas. She’s everything that tool Jeremy Corbyn should be. Still stuck in your world of hyperbole Matt? |
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Post by matt on Aug 27, 2018 8:46:42 GMT -5
If I had to vote for a leader in Westminster, it would be Caroline Lucas. She’s everything that tool Jeremy Corbyn should be. Still stuck in your world of hyperbole Matt? You tell me what he’s got over Lucas? A year on since his election surprise and he’s done fuck all and allowing us to walk into a hard Brexit. Allowing them to trigger Article 50 without opposition? Controls about free movement? All the forecasts predict a disaster yet he’s happy to go along with it? Pathetic leadership in all honesty. |
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Post by mancraider on Aug 27, 2018 9:00:37 GMT -5
I see this argument in Twitter all the time. Fact is it was agreed before the referendum that the result would be honoured. To turn round and immediately oppose it because you didn't like the result would have been political suicide, and Corbyn was having enough problems at the time being painted as an enemy of democracy by the Tory party. More than that it would have been futile as well because the tories were never going to lose the vote.
The SNP and LD etc had nothing to lose by opposing it as they are never going to be in power in Westminster (the merits of th FPTP system is an argument for another time).
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Post by tomlivesforever on Aug 27, 2018 9:04:40 GMT -5
Still stuck in your world of hyperbole Matt? You tell me what he’s got over Lucas? A year on since his election surprise and he’s done fuck all and allowing us to walk into a hard Brexit. Allowing them to trigger Article 50 without opposition? Controls about free movement? All the forecasts predict a disaster yet he’s happy to go along with it? Pathetic leadership in all honesty. And what of the people who voted to leave? I am a passionate remainer, gutted the way the referendum went but you also have to accept politcal realities. Labour heartlands voting to leave and targeted constituencies for a general election also having significant leave votes make it tricky. As for Caroline Lucas, I think she's great but its easy to shout from the sidelines when you have no hope of being elected and 99% of your voting base is singing from the same hymn sheet. |
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Post by jordan71421 on Aug 27, 2018 9:18:34 GMT -5
You tell me what he’s got over Lucas? A year on since his election surprise and he’s done fuck all and allowing us to walk into a hard Brexit. Allowing them to trigger Article 50 without opposition? Controls about free movement? All the forecasts predict a disaster yet he’s happy to go along with it? Pathetic leadership in all honesty. And what of the people who voted to leave? I am a passionate remainer, gutted the way the referendum went but you also have to accept politcal realities. Labour heartlands voting to leave and targeted constituencies for a general election also having significant leave votes make it tricky. As for Caroline Lucas, I think she's great but its easy to shout from the sidelines when you have no hope of being elected and 99% of your voting base is singing from the same hymn sheet. Hit the nail on the head there. You have to accept political realities |
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Post by matt on Aug 27, 2018 11:45:58 GMT -5
You tell me what he’s got over Lucas? A year on since his election surprise and he’s done fuck all and allowing us to walk into a hard Brexit. Allowing them to trigger Article 50 without opposition? Controls about free movement? All the forecasts predict a disaster yet he’s happy to go along with it? Pathetic leadership in all honesty. And what of the people who voted to leave? I am a passionate remainer, gutted the way the referendum went but you also have to accept political realities. Labour heartlands voting to leave and targeted constituencies for a general election also having significant leave votes make it tricky. As for Caroline Lucas, I think she's great but its easy to shout from the sidelines when you have no hope of being elected and 99% of your voting base is singing from the same hymn sheet. I genuinely do not believe we have to accept 'political realities' when that reality is disastrous for everyone. Very extreme example, but that's like a fascist government being voted in and saying 'well they got in, we might as well shut up and put up'. Yes, I agree that the traditional Labour voting heartlands voted for Brexit but the EU is a scapegoat for the disenfranchised and their insecurities have been exploited by the tawdry right wing - and what is a democratic vote anyhow when the entire campaign for Brexit was based on fraud and complete lies? I hear this tired analogy from Brexiteers that you don't replay a football match because you lost. True, but you also don't accept a football match where the opposition were playing with 12 men and with performance enhancing drugs. Labour are the part of the working class and it's up to Corbyn to say the EU is not to blame for your woes and try and change public opinion amongst a large base of the traditional Labour vote. And it's up to him to offer a viable alternative to their woes that proves the EU is not to blame. Because that is the truth whenyou can go onto the continent and see social democratic countries with greater equality quite happily working in alignment with the EU. It's just really bad leadership to back that Brexit point of view just because the vote base believes it when there is literally no alternative to their predicament. For me it is personal. Political is the personal and from where I'm from I know of the massive benefits the EU brings to parts of the UK. The local economy where I come from will be royally screwed when this goes ahead so I'd like to see what alternative Corbyn has to our predicament. He can play his student politics game and go against the EU because he sees it as a case of typical neo-liberal colonial expansionism from the west or whatever he has swallowed from a Chomsky book, but perhaps if he'd venture out to areas in the UK where the EU has been incredibly beneficial, then he might see a more realistic picture, one not based on his personal fantasies. It's an easy option up here when we have a leader in Nicola Sturgeon who gets it, and with Lucas, she's been by far the most authoritative and pragmatic voice in this whole fiasco and for me it's easy to vote for Scottish independence now when both Westminster parties being practically useless. And you will see that stance now right across Scotland. The only pragmatic decision on the EU is to remain in the EU - because there's been no good argument from either the left or right. The EU is not perfect, but it's still a better idea than anything anyone else has so I can't support anyone who would allow us to sleepwalk into this disaster. |
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Post by The Escapist on Aug 27, 2018 12:39:11 GMT -5
And what of the people who voted to leave? I am a passionate remainer, gutted the way the referendum went but you also have to accept political realities. Labour heartlands voting to leave and targeted constituencies for a general election also having significant leave votes make it tricky. As for Caroline Lucas, I think she's great but its easy to shout from the sidelines when you have no hope of being elected and 99% of your voting base is singing from the same hymn sheet. I genuinely do not believe we have to accept 'political realities' when that reality is disastrous for everyone. Very extreme example, but that's like a fascist government being voted in and saying 'well they got in, we might as well shut up and put up'. Yes, I agree that the traditional Labour voting heartlands voted for Brexit but the EU is a scapegoat for the disenfranchised and their insecurities have been exploited by the tawdry right wing - and what is a democratic vote anyhow when the entire campaign for Brexit was based on fraud and complete lies? I hear this tired analogy from Brexiteers that you don't replay a football match because you lost. True, but you also don't accept a football match where the opposition were playing with 12 men and with performance enhancing drugs. Labour are the part of the working class and it's up to Corbyn to say the EU is not to blame for your woes and try and change public opinion amongst a large base of the traditional Labour vote. And it's up to him to offer a viable alternative to their woes that proves the EU is not to blame. Because that is the truth whenyou can go onto the continent and see social democratic countries with greater equality quite happily working in alignment with the EU. It's just really bad leadership to back that Brexit point of view just because the vote base believes it when there is literally no alternative to their predicament. For me it is personal. Political is the personal and from where I'm from I know of the massive benefits the EU brings to parts of the UK. The local economy where I come from will be royally screwed when this goes ahead so I'd like to see what alternative Corbyn has to our predicament. He can play his student politics game and go against the EU because he sees it as a case of typical neo-liberal colonial expansionism from the west just or whatever he has swallowed from a Chomsky book, but perhaps if he'd venture out to areas in the UK where the EU has been incredibly beneficial, then he might see a more realistic picture, one not based on his personal fantasies. It's an easy option up here when we have a leader in Nicola Sturgeon who gets it, and with Lucas, she's been by far the most authoritative and pragmatic voice in this whole fiasco and for me it's easy to vote for Scottish independence now when both Westminster parties being practically useless. And you will see that stance now right across Scotland. The only pragmatic decision on the EU is to remain in the EU - because there's been no good argument from either the left or right. The EU is not perfect, but it's still a better idea than anything anyone else has so I can't support anyone who would allow us to sleepwalk into this disaster. Chomsky would have voted remain: "For all its flaws, the EU offers some kind of independent and (by comparative standards) constructive option in world affairs, and could do more." |
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Post by oasisserbia on Aug 31, 2018 4:35:06 GMT -5
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Post by Guy Fawkes on Sept 1, 2018 16:19:26 GMT -5
John McCain got one hell of a send off....notably absent, dumbass.
God bless.
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Post by crisppacket on Sept 4, 2018 5:36:04 GMT -5
All this talk about liberals getting outraged at every little thing, yet right wingers are in meltdown over a Nike campaign l o l
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Post by globe on Sept 4, 2018 8:07:58 GMT -5
All this talk about liberals getting outraged at every little thing, yet right wingers are in meltdown over a Nike campaign l o l I know, proper snowflakes eh. |
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Post by eva on Sept 4, 2018 13:41:46 GMT -5
All this talk about liberals getting outraged at every little thing, yet right wingers are in meltdown over a Nike campaign l o l omg that is probably the dumbest thing I've seen all year. absolutely ridiculous |
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Post by janedoe on Oct 8, 2018 5:43:48 GMT -5
They do look alike
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5