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Post by matt on Oct 9, 2022 16:00:36 GMT -5
So... Kanye West's carreer is officially dead now, right? It should be. Hard to see where anything goes from here. For a while, his mental disorders made it seem in poor taste to comment on the awful things he had said while in the middle of manic episodes, but at this point his refusal to get any form of proper treatment and instead use his illnesses to indulge every toxic instinct and insane worldview is its own issue. Lots of people have bi-polar, but the overwhelming majority do not spend their manic periods spreading anti-semitism. Obviously, the primary shame is those who will feel the historical hate in his words, although from my (very privilaged) perspective, it's hard not to feel dismayed that one of the best discographies in modern music is sullied by the deranged path the artist's life took. Genuinely torn on whether I would listen to any of his new music from now on; maybe profitless downloads somewhere, or not at all. It is a shame for sure, I think he's so talented. I don't listen to his music and hip hop just goes over my head, but I found his interview with Zane Lowe on Apple so fascinating at how his mind worked creatively. I appreciate the talent without being a fan, in that sense I'd find it easy to listen to his music still because I have that distance and its not so personal. It's back to that age old debate that's been had on here for so long, can you separate art from the individual creating it? |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Oct 9, 2022 17:18:37 GMT -5
The Escapist , while checking out The Cure's back catalogue, did you ever make it to 1992's Wish? It's an album which, despite a plentiful supply of good material, I struggle to enjoy. Mostly that's due to the way it sounds (very even-handed production, muddy and flat mixes); but the tracklist is also to blame I think.
If you have some spare time, I could do with your tactical nous for rearranging running orders. I've tried a number of different permutations, but never been able to get it quite right.
The album as it is: 1. Open
2. High 3. Apart 4. From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea 5. Wendy Time 6. Doing the Unstuck 7. Friday I'm in Love 8. Trust 9. A Letter to Elise 10. Cut 11. To Wish Impossible Things 12. End With the era's B-sides: This Twilight Garden Play Halo Scared As You A Foolish Arrangement The Big Hand
Wish was there first Cure album I heard in full after the greatest hits albums. I found a copy for $2 in a bargain bin and couldn’t resist. It is, like BHN, quite over the top. But there’s a good album in there. It’s also fairly impossible to follow up Disintegration when that’s your previous studio album! I would switch Wendy Time out for This Twilight Garden. Then maybe cut Cut. It’s a pretty long album anyways but I think this helps it a lot. Decent bsides here but Twilight Garden definitely deserves to be on the album. This Twilight Garden is lovely, but I think The Big Hand is my favourite B-side of this period. It's really well arranged, the production is good, and Robert's lyrics are cohesive and memorable.
All the same, this is my most recent attempt at rearranging the album with just the tracks Robert and the band went with:
1. Open 2. High 3. Apart 4. A Letter to Elise 5. Wendy Time 6. Doing the Unstuck 7. Friday I'm in Love 8. Cut 9. Trust
10. To Wish Impossible Things 11. From the Edge of the Deep Green Sea
Losing End seems a no-brainer to me. Don't really like that one, and it takes the piss a bit, coming at the end of such a long album and running to nearly seven minutes with much repetition. I'd rather have Deep Green Sea close the album on a high, and move A Letter to Elise up to track four -- arguably better placement for a single.
I wanted to separate Trust from Friday I'm in Love, as I have always felt that that juxtaposition of Cure song styles was ridiculous to the point of self-parody. It does sound nice coupled with To Wish Impossible Things as well, I think, as a sort of mellow gloom suite.
I understand the arguments for losing Wendy Time and Cut -- for one thing, both songs are about a minute longer than they needed to be -- but I do enjoy them both.
I hope this upcoming remaster can solve some of the issues with the way the album sounds. Robert has said he's never been happy with the way it was mastered: he was sorting out their touring schedule as the album was being mastered, and by the time he got to hear it it was too late to make any changes; the thing had to come out as it was, sounding all flat and muddy.
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Post by The Escapist on Oct 10, 2022 13:06:38 GMT -5
theyknowwhatimean Well, first thing: what an album! I couldn't say it quite matches Disintegration, but it's up there. The variety is obvious, but there's just a keen sense of melody through the whole thing. That "All I want is to keep it like this, you and me alone, a secret kiss" in "Deep Green Sea" might be my favourite moment in any Cure song, ever. The way he sings it is addictive, which is apt given what the themes of the album seem to be. That said, I can see the trouble you're having; "tight themes with a mixing-bag of sounds" is a tricky thing to organise. I suppose we should start with which songs make the album at all: from the original album, three songs don't quite work for me. I agree with you about "End", which doesn't give you much bang-for-your-stream on the whole, even though I love the lyrics. "Wendy Tune" is half-fun but never quite gets to wherever it is it's trying to go. And "Doing the Unstuck" just doesn't work for me at all. I know they like their mad-happiness tunes every now again, but that one is pushing it. Sounds like something current Chris Martin might come out with, and when I'm using that as an insult, you know things have gone wrong somewhere. Happily, the b-sides are all strong. For me, though "Halo", "The Big Hand", and "Twilight Garden" all stand-out as not just good tracks, but some of the best of the whole era. Love them all. Halo in particular is just lovely, for me. The other b-sides are all Good Cure Songs, but the album has enough of those already I think. So, three in, three out, that works. Ordering is a bigger headache. The temptation is to put all the catchy love songs at the beginning and then let the album mellow out into the darker, break-up/cold-turkey tracks. But when you press play on a Cure album, do you really want three or four Jo-Whiley-friendly bops coming at you all at once? I don't think so. If you go a different route, though, it feels like you're jumbling the themes around. So, this is my solution: 1. Open 2. Halo 3. The Big Hand 4. A Letter to Elise 5. Friday I'm in Love 6. High 7. Twilight Garden 8. Trust 9. Apart 10. Cut 11. To Wish Impossible Things 12. From the Edge of a Deep Green Sea The single-friendly tracks dominate the first half and you keep that angst-epic-opener-followed-by-cute-pop-song dynamic that I always enjoy. The idea is that Halo is revealed to be about drugs on The Big Hand, and A Letter to Elise - possibly the most straight-forward love song to a human and not a chemical - is about a real break-up which he does to facilitate his relationship with drugs on the next trilogy of tracks, which then turns tragic as it has to do, with that bittersweet ending with the best track at the end. So, it's almost a love-triangle of Goth-Woman-Drugs. Which is hot! And I think it flows quite nicely. High into Twilight Garden might feel somewhat abrupt, but I think it moves the love-songs from brightness to darkness nicely.
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on Oct 11, 2022 9:35:51 GMT -5
The Escapist , I am so chuffed you enjoyed the album and its B-sides. By the sounds of it, you like the stuff more than I do.
I almost didn't send that post, out of embarrasment over sort of asking you to give up rather a lot of your time for something you might not even like. That's why I joked about your proclivity for rearranging tracklists -- you ran with that nicely, by the way -- to disguise the fact I was effectively handing you an unpaid assignment which could be more trouble than it's worth.
The pop songs stick out from the rest so much, it probably is best to clump them up in one near the top of the album. I'll try that on my next draft. The second half can cope with being solidly dark, because there's more variety in the darker stuff: you have wistful, angry, disappointed, anxious, all kinds of gloom.
Speaking of, what did you think of Open? That's the one track (along with Friday I'm in Love, I guess) I can say without any hesitation that I properly love. The distorted guitars that mark Wish out from other Cure albums (probably an influence of Nirvana's Nevermind, which was released as they were recording) sound great here, and I love Robert's lyrics. When people talk about songs that tell stories, Eleanor Rigby or Down in the Tube Station at Midnight are often the ones that get named. But I think Open deserves notice alongside those classics. There's a lot of truth in it, that's for sure. And speaking of the addictive way Robert has of singing certain lines, I love how he sings "And the way the rain comes down hard is how I feel inside." Some Cure lyrics look silly written down, but when you hear them sung they make perfect sense.
I'm sorry you don't care for Doing the Unstuck. I don't think it's perfect, but it may be the only moment on the record that truly soars. I find that verse near the end as affecting as any of the album's sad songs:
It's a perfect day for getting wild,
Forgetting all your worries, life, and everything that makes you cry. Let's get happy!
This probably means you're more of a natural Cure fan than me. I know Robert really tests the patience of the diehards when he writes songs like this. I have seen some of them say they've cut Friday I'm in Love from their Wish playlists, and replaced it with Sacred As You, or something daft like that. Ha!
I hope things are going well with you and your girlfriend, man.
I should imagine you'll have some success converting her to The Cure. They've always been an anglophile's band. They were fucking huge in North and South America, more popular there than here really. I think we Brits struggle with Robert's extreme moods. Although he seems like just a nice, quietly spoken chap in interviews, with his songwriting he's the polar opposite of the "Keep calm and carry on" British ideal. 
Now if that's whetted your appetite, you could always take a look at Wild Mood Swings... If rearranging Wish is about turning a good album into the great one it could have been, Wild Mood Swings would be more of a salvage job. They were a bit out of sorts by 1996, not gelling at all well with the Britpop scene. Still some good stuff, but the running order is bats.
If you do fancy it, here are the B-sides: It Used to be Me Ocean Adonais Home
Waiting A Pink Dream |
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Oct 12, 2022 6:30:38 GMT -5
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Post by norkbauer on Oct 30, 2022 0:52:17 GMT -5
In love with this band, opening act for Fontaines DC in North America and UK this November.
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Post by eva on Oct 31, 2022 18:10:42 GMT -5
now this is how you make an 80s vibe song sound modern
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Post by mimmihopps on Nov 2, 2022 4:27:37 GMT -5
Sigur Ros last night was, as always, phenomenal. I was in a completely different world for 3 hours.
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Post by jezza2 on Nov 2, 2022 10:03:14 GMT -5
Rick Beato putting There She Goes by The La's in his "Top 20 One Hit Wonders of the 90's"? Might ruffle some feathers around here.
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Post by Manualex on Nov 2, 2022 10:09:38 GMT -5
Rick Beato putting There She Goes by The La's in his "Top 20 One Hit Wonders of the 90's"? Might ruffle some feathers around here. If the cover that was done in the 2000's wasn't made the song would've been lost to time in other places other than the UK. Maybe an exaggeration, but it made people that wouldn't have bothered, look at the La's. |
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Post by oasisserbia on Nov 2, 2022 12:08:01 GMT -5
What cover?
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Post by Manualex on Nov 2, 2022 12:33:34 GMT -5
Has more views in YouTube than the original version from the la's
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 7, 2022 17:13:45 GMT -5
Making a version of The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan for my own library:
1. Blowin' in the Wind
2. Girl from the North Country
3. A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall
4. House of the Rising Sun
5. Masters of War
6. Oxford Town
7. Bob Dylan's Dream
8. Don't Think Twice, it's Alright
9. Tomorrow is a Long Time
10. Talkin' World War Three Blues
11. Corrina, Corrina
12. Song to Woody
13. Let Me Die in my Footsteps
Feels almost sacrilegious to make great changes to a classic, but I do think the added tracks from anthologies deserved their place over some of the weaker tracks of the original; "Let Me Die in my Footsteps" is a beautiful track and would have made the perfect closer, much more so than "I Shall Be Free". It even has a call-back to things being blown in the wind!
I can see why people would tut at carrying tracks over from the debut, but I just don't listen to that record much and "Song to Woody" is just too gorgeous not to be in my library proper. I think this version makes a great document of the emergence of one of the greatest musical figures of all time.
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 8, 2022 17:50:42 GMT -5
Bob Dylan.
Accept no substitute.
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Post by matt on Nov 10, 2022 18:45:33 GMT -5
Imagine if they created a supergroup combining the best from The Beatles and The Rolling Stones?
There'd be John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr.
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Post by Elie De Beaufour 🐴 on Nov 10, 2022 19:50:56 GMT -5
Sharon Osbourne is Yoko Ono of metal. I'm sure Bruce said nothing.
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Post by oasisserbia on Nov 11, 2022 4:26:02 GMT -5
Ok, Ricky was drunk and was singing like shit, it is not like he is any better when sober. The real shock is how the fuck are Kaiser Chiefs still playing in arenas?
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Post by Day Tripper on Nov 11, 2022 15:26:33 GMT -5
Bob Dylan. Accept no substitute. What are your thoughts on the 1966 albums? |
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 11, 2022 15:31:02 GMT -5
Bob Dylan. Accept no substitute. What are your thoughts on the 1966 albums? you mean? |
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Post by Day Tripper on Nov 11, 2022 15:40:56 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on the 1966 albums? you mean? Oh wait sorry, I meant the electric trilogy! For some reason I remembered they all came out in 1966. Bringing it all back home is my favourite Dylan album so I was wondering how does it rank for you  Blonde on Blonde is 2nd favourite. |
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Post by The Escapist on Nov 11, 2022 16:41:23 GMT -5
Blonde on Blonde, you mean? Oh wait sorry, I meant the electric trilogy! For some reason I remembered they all came out in 1966. Bringing it all back home is my favourite Dylan album so I was wondering how does it rank for you Blonde on Blonde is 2nd favourite. Whatever order, that's peak Dylan for me. Out of the three, my ranking would be: 1. Blonde on Blonde 2. Highway 61 Revisited 3. Bringing it All Back Home Of course, all three are fantastic. Bringing it All Back Home has the heavy-weight classics from top to bottom, Highway 61 is the dense masterpiece, but Blonde on Blonde just has a romantic swirl to it, a kind of golden surrealist perfection that I can't get over; swap "Pledging My Time" for "Positively 4th Street" and it might just be my favourite album of the 1960's. And that's a big statement, considering that there was a set of scousers at the time who were known to write a good tune or two. If you're interested, here's my overall Dylan ranking from a while ago:  (I might swap Infidels and Nashville Skyline around, these days. I think I'm resolute in being being a big fan of his post-2000 work, but still finding Time Out of Mind to be a little over-wrought to really worm into my rotation, though - aside from the beautiful "Not Dark Yet", which is one of my very favourite Dylan songs.) |
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Post by matt on Nov 12, 2022 10:41:53 GMT -5
I've been reading Bono's autobiography and I'm loving every page. I had fears it would be cripplingly self-conscious but instead its very self-aware. A meditation on grief, anger, faith and self-doubt that fuels U2's music. Touchingly, a love story towards his long suffering wife and his bandmates who he believes are the anchors that saved him from self-destruction.
It subverts everything the bandwagoning critics say about him and his music. He most certainly doesn't deserve the hate he gets and I think in a world which bigs up very unpleasant frontmen, he's one of the good guys. This interview is great too, it's great to finally hear some love he has for the album Pop, and nice praise for Oasis too when he discusses no shame in striving for big ambitious choruses.
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Post by World71R on Nov 12, 2022 17:37:28 GMT -5
I've been reading Bono's autobiography and I'm loving every page. I had fears it would be cripplingly self-conscious but instead its very self-aware. A meditation on grief, anger, faith and self-doubt that fuels U2's music. Touchingly, a love story towards his long suffering wife and his bandmates who he believes are the anchors that saved him from self-destruction. It subverts everything the bandwagoning critics say about him and his music. He most certainly doesn't deserve the hate he gets and I think in a world which bigs up very unpleasant frontmen, he's one of the good guys. This interview is great too, it's great to finally hear some love he has for the album Pop, and nice praise for Oasis too when he discusses no shame in striving for big ambitious choruses. I'm glad these two things popped up in the memoir. If you dig into U2's history and discography, you quickly realize that Bono's perceived arrogance is just that – a perception. There's a lot of meaning in U2's music and Bono & co. certainly seem to love the fans, and I think they've also picked up on fans' love for Pop. The old @u2 forum and the U2 subreddit routinely rank that as one of their best. I'm curious what things he had to say about Pop though? |
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Post by matt on Nov 12, 2022 19:03:33 GMT -5
I've been reading Bono's autobiography and I'm loving every page. I had fears it would be cripplingly self-conscious but instead its very self-aware. A meditation on grief, anger, faith and self-doubt that fuels U2's music. Touchingly, a love story towards his long suffering wife and his bandmates who he believes are the anchors that saved him from self-destruction. It subverts everything the bandwagoning critics say about him and his music. He most certainly doesn't deserve the hate he gets and I think in a world which bigs up very unpleasant frontmen, he's one of the good guys. This interview is great too, it's great to finally hear some love he has for the album Pop, and nice praise for Oasis too when he discusses no shame in striving for big ambitious choruses. I'm glad these two things popped up in the memoir. If you dig into U2's history and discography, you quickly realize that Bono's perceived arrogance is just that – a perception. There's a lot of meaning in U2's music and Bono & co. certainly seem to love the fans, and I think they've also picked up on fans' love for Pop. The old @u2 forum and the U2 subreddit routinely rank that as one of their best. I'm curious what things he had to say about Pop though? In a nutshell, similar to what he discusses at 21 minutes, in that the album is a great concept that he loves but not executed well, which is broadly fair on the album. I had this perception the band overreacted in their dismissal of it, that they were almost embarrassed by its concept - you only have to see how they butchered those songs with new mixes for the 1990-2000 compilation, which took everything that was sonically interesting about those songs and plastered it with bland guitar 'rawk'. But he gives an honest appraisal of it that doesn't shit on the album. Personally, I think it's a brilliant album but I don't think it's a great album. It lacks that killer hit singles that every great U2 album had and is basically an album of deep cuts. And I think it lacks the ethereal and beauty that even their most experimental albums like Zooropa and Unforgettable Fire had. It's very cynical and a bit too heavy. But an underrated gem that rewards with more listens, much like all U2 albums and songs outside of the instantly catchy singles. I think All That You Can't Leave Behind is a better album. It's not heavy or cynical but it's better executed. It does exactly what it intends to do, it has the euphoria of the first half before settling into a more introspective but meditative second half. |
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Post by funhouse on Nov 13, 2022 16:56:58 GMT -5
Imagine if they created a supergroup combining the best from The Beatles and The Rolling Stones? There'd be John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr. This is why there should be a dislike button! |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5