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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 24, 2022 7:18:27 GMT -5
"The Grdelica train bombing occurred on 12 April 1999, when two missiles fired by US aircraft F-15E Strike Eagle hit a passenger train while it was passing across a railway bridge over the Južna Morava river in the Grdelica gorge, some 300 kilometres (190 mi) south of Belgrade, Serbia. At least 20 civilian passengers were killed or declared missing. Estimates of the total death toll run as high as 60.[1] It is considered the deadliest rail disaster in Serbian history."
Was this defending Albanians on Kosovo? Stopping war, helping us overthrown dictator Milosevic, great, NATO, please help us. But don't kill civilians and give independence to Kosovo which is/was part of Serbia.
You want independent Kosovo? Ok, then also let people of eastern Ukraine be independent, Ukraine would be fucked, they wouldn't have support from west or east and they would just surrender and Putin wouldn't need tanks.
Still no excuse for what Putin is doing, not 1% in my eyes, I just want to explain how this happened and how it is west's fault as much as it is Putin's.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Feb 24, 2022 8:15:42 GMT -5
Changed answer to a Yes
Bad, bad times....
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Post by The Escapist on Feb 24, 2022 8:27:16 GMT -5
I'm not talking about here because this is an old thread, but I find the whole "WW3" stuff off-colour. It feels like Westerners can only express concern over something like this by acting as if tragedy of it is that it might one day escalate and affect them, rather than the fact that it's fucking awful even if it "only" stays localised to Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm over-thinking, but you know what I mean.
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Post by RocketMan on Feb 24, 2022 8:38:15 GMT -5
I'm not talking about here because this is an old thread, but I find the whole "WW3" stuff off-colour. It feels like Westerners can only express concern over something like this by acting as if tragedy of it is that it might one day escalate and affect them, rather than the fact that it's fucking awful even if it "only" stays localised to Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm over-thinking, but you know what I mean. I’m honestly just stunned right now. Never thought this could happen and you gotta wonder what exactly the end goal is for Putin and also for China, because they sure as shit will look at this as an opportunity to slowly move forward Taiwan |
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Post by dampcottage on Feb 24, 2022 8:53:00 GMT -5
I'm not talking about here because this is an old thread, but I find the whole "WW3" stuff off-colour. It feels like Westerners can only express concern over something like this by acting as if tragedy of it is that it might one day escalate and affect them, rather than the fact that it's fucking awful even if it "only" stays localised to Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm over-thinking, but you know what I mean. I know what you mean! There'll be plenty of grumbling when it starts to hit people in their pockets, but little actual fuck will be given until it lands on the doorstep |
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Post by tomlivesforever on Feb 24, 2022 9:06:04 GMT -5
I'm not talking about here because this is an old thread, but I find the whole "WW3" stuff off-colour. It feels like Westerners can only express concern over something like this by acting as if tragedy of it is that it might one day escalate and affect them, rather than the fact that it's fucking awful even if it "only" stays localised to Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm over-thinking, but you know what I mean. I know what you mean. I am nervous about where it could go if I'm honest but the pointless suffering those people in Ukraine will be going through is devastating. All for a bunch of old wankers playing Risk with real people. |
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Post by jezza2 on Feb 24, 2022 10:02:42 GMT -5
Putin declared the region controlled by the rebels independent of Ukraine and to him, walking in is fine.
I guess this is our Ukraine invasion thread?
Fuck the UN and fuck sanctions, actually do something. Taiwan will be next.
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Post by Manualex on Feb 24, 2022 10:34:28 GMT -5
And we had so much time to bring laws about what one territory need to be independent. If you have Republika Srpska and Kosovo, you can't have independent Kosovo and Republika Srpska as part of Bosnia. Milosevic idiot wanted both, West humiliated Serbia and took both for them. For example, if there was international law that one territory needs to have: - at least 1 000 000 people - 70 percent of them voted for independence then that land can be independent and maybe vote to be part of some country. We can have: - Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic as part of Ukraine - Kosovo as part of Serbia - Republika Srpska as part of Bosnia and Herzegovina - Catalonia as part of Spain and so on. Or - independent Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic and then probably part of Russia - independent Kosovo and then probably part of Albania - independent Republika Srpska and then probably part of Serbia - independent Catalonia and so on. If we as the world chose any of those two things, many wars would be stopped. As long as we have independent Kosovo, someone like Putin can always say, why then Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic can't be independent? I don't think Putin wants independent Donestk and Lugansk, he wants them for Russia. And that makes this even worse. |
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 24, 2022 10:41:32 GMT -5
China is still more scary to me. Russians and USA are old bullies with their methods, China is doing so much more invisible stuff, they are taking control without us even knowing it. I met Chinese businessman in Slovenia, sent there by their government, who literally had unlimited budget to buy everything that is for sale. He was buying airport at the time.
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 24, 2022 10:45:34 GMT -5
And we had so much time to bring laws about what one territory need to be independent. If you have Republika Srpska and Kosovo, you can't have independent Kosovo and Republika Srpska as part of Bosnia. Milosevic idiot wanted both, West humiliated Serbia and took both for them. For example, if there was international law that one territory needs to have: - at least 1 000 000 people - 70 percent of them voted for independence then that land can be independent and maybe vote to be part of some country. We can have: - Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic as part of Ukraine - Kosovo as part of Serbia - Republika Srpska as part of Bosnia and Herzegovina - Catalonia as part of Spain and so on. Or - independent Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic and then probably part of Russia - independent Kosovo and then probably part of Albania - independent Republika Srpska and then probably part of Serbia - independent Catalonia and so on. If we as the world chose any of those two things, many wars would be stopped. As long as we have independent Kosovo, someone like Putin can always say, why then Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic can't be independent? I don't think Putin wants independent Donestk and Lugansk, he wants them for Russia. And that makes this even worse. Wtf is even happening there, I really can't follow the news now. Is the Russian army "only" in so called Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic or are they are also in other parts of Ukraine? |
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Post by RocketMan on Feb 24, 2022 11:02:32 GMT -5
I don't think Putin wants independent Donestk and Lugansk, he wants them for Russia. And that makes this even worse. Wtf is even happening there, I really can't follow the news now. Is the Russian army "only" in so called Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic or are they are also in other parts of Ukraine? Ehm?! Russia surrounded the entire country and is basically invading from three different places. He wants to snack the entire country |
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 24, 2022 11:18:58 GMT -5
Putin declared the region controlled by the rebels independent of Ukraine and to him, walking in is fine. I guess this is our Ukraine invasion thread? Fuck the UN and fuck sanctions, actually do something. Taiwan will be next. Sadly I agree that this will embolden China and Taiwan will be next. But what can you do realistically? Putin is a genuine psycopath, he feels no emotion or empathy, he's lived most of his life already and is ruled by his ambition and lust for power only, he's not afraid of starting a nuclear war because he has little to lose. If attacked by Nato he will return fire with everything he has. It will very quickly escalate to a nuclear conflict as one side attempts to preemptively strike the other, both sides will very quickly reach the conclusion that striking first is the only possible means to any kind of victory and will act out of fear and then that's it, game over, the most horrific event that could ever possible occur to mankind would happen and we would all spend our last few days in indescribable, utterly unimaginable pain, horror and terror. How you deal with powerful delusional despots in the nuclear age is basically unanswerable, you just have to hope that they never go too far. If we stick troops on the ground in Ukraine that'll be the beginning of the end, no two ways about it, as soon as one western power mentions that they're going to actively engage in conflict with Russia you might as well start digging your own grave because you're done, whether that takes days, weeks or years everyone will be on borrowed time. We have to avoid that at all costs. |
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Post by morning_rain on Feb 24, 2022 11:53:34 GMT -5
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Post by LightsOffInside on Feb 24, 2022 11:54:32 GMT -5
I never thought I’d see the day where I actually missed Covid dominating the headlines, this is awful and depressing, I am desperately sad for everyone in Ukraine.
Two years of pandemic and not once did I considered just stopping watching the news and deleting all social media apps to get away from it all, but with this stuff, I might just have to. But alas, my mental health suffering is NOTHING compared to the suffering these poor, once-free people are having to endure.
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 24, 2022 12:06:30 GMT -5
I never thought I’d see the day where I actually missed Covid dominating the headlines, this is awful and depressing, I am desperately sad for everyone in Ukraine. Two years of pandemic and not once did I considered just stopping watching the news and deleting all social media apps to get away from it all, but with this stuff, I might just have to. But alas, my mental health suffering is NOTHING compared to the suffering these poor, once-free people are having to endure. Yeah I'm having the same dilemma to be honest and it's making me feel ashamed of myself. My anxiety is through the roof and I haven't eaten in a day and a half nor slept a wink but it's literally nothing compared to what they're going through and I'm aware they would all desperately love to be in my position right now of relative safety. But while I'm desperately sad for the people experiencing the invasion of their country right now I'm hyper aware of where this is all likely to lead I thought these days were over for more developed nations, was very naive in believing that humanity had moved on, that even the worst of us as in our leaders weren't as bad as they used to be, I was wrong. |
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Post by jezza2 on Feb 24, 2022 12:59:51 GMT -5
Putin declared the region controlled by the rebels independent of Ukraine and to him, walking in is fine. I guess this is our Ukraine invasion thread? Fuck the UN and fuck sanctions, actually do something. Taiwan will be next. Sadly I agree that this will embolden China and Taiwan will be next. But what can you do realistically? Putin is a genuine psycopath, he feels no emotion or empathy, he's lived most of his life already and is ruled by his ambition and lust for power only, he's not afraid of starting a nuclear war because he has little to lose. If attacked by Nato he will return fire with everything he has. It will very quickly escalate to a nuclear conflict as one side attempts to preemptively strike the other, both sides will very quickly reach the conclusion that striking first is the only possible means to any kind of victory and will act out of fear and then that's it, game over, the most horrific event that could ever possible occur to mankind would happen and we would all spend our last few days in indescribable, utterly unimaginable pain, horror and terror. How you deal with powerful delusional despots in the nuclear age is basically unanswerable, you just have to hope that they never go too far. If we stick troops on the ground in Ukraine that'll be the beginning of the end, no two ways about it, as soon as one western power mentions that they're going to actively engage in conflict with Russia you might as well start digging your own grave because you're done, whether that takes days, weeks or years everyone will be on borrowed time. We have to avoid that at all costs. I 100% agree. What can we actually do? Do we play Checkpoint Charlie and see who backs down first or do we just give in to Putin and let him take Donbas? Everyone is too scared to actually confront Russia so we just put on sanctions that have stopped an astounding 0 countries from doing what the sanctions were designed to stop. Does the US play Police Officer and put boots on the ground? That wont work because Afghanistan just happened and people are tired of the US being on foreign soil. How do you prevent a war when war is inevitable? Look at Czechoslovakia in 1938. It disappeared 20 years into it's creation because they thought a piece of paper would stop a dictator from reclaiming soil that was "rightfully theirs." It was touted as the "island of democracy" when it was first created by Tomáš Masaryk (with the help of Wilson, mind you. Pittsburgh Agreement of 1918). On a side note: oasisserbia , love the new pic. |
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Post by Jessica on Feb 24, 2022 13:12:21 GMT -5
Honestly, my family stopped watching and listening to the news after Donald Trump was elected and besides the start of COVID and the protests, we haven't been hugely invested in any of it. It's been a lot better to just focus on the things in front of us and not get so consumed in all the endless fighting that we have little control of. I mean, I'm uninformed, but I've made progress in life in ways a lot of people my age haven't because of their hyper awareness of everything that has happened since.
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 24, 2022 13:30:03 GMT -5
Here is my plan for everyone. How about to start to work something? If Ukraine both had pro-west and pro-russian governments and both did nothing, if USA and Russia are chosing governments in Ukraine, how about that one time they pick the right person for prime minister and president, share with them knowledge, help them with economy, corruption... If pro-western or pro-russian governments ever brought prosperity to this country, everyone would vote for that government again and nobody would care about war and country wouldn't be divided.
I am talking from personal experience because situation is same here. We have dictator fully supported by west and now I supposed to be pro-west?
Same with fucking Putin. You could have shown them that is better for them to be close with Russia, if pro-russian governemnts that they had brought them prosperity, I believe that 90% wouldn't think about joining NATO and EU and being enemies with Russia.
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Post by oasisserbia on Feb 24, 2022 13:35:56 GMT -5
No need for this, we all know what war is. |
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Post by funhouse on Feb 24, 2022 14:11:06 GMT -5
Massive respect to the brave Russians out in the streets, risking their own safety to protest against their fascist leaders.
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Post by matt on Feb 24, 2022 15:39:56 GMT -5
Everything that Putin now does, he can say, Western nations did too, why can't I? And they do it still. I can explain 24/7 some things about Yugoslavian wars/Kosovo but nobody seems to care. Or Djokovic situation. Yes, he is dick, but there is law and you can't do what you want. You can't bomb Yugoslavia just like that and civilian targets. But Western nations felt so mighty and superior. Serbia is shithole country today but at least I am glad that I can see some things as they are and to live in "grey area". Fuck Putin and fuck NATO, I only hope that there will be peace and that all innocent people will not get hurt. Catalans wants independence but they will not risk their lives to take guns and fight for "fredeom". They are living too good to go into adventures like that. All Eastern European governments are controled by west and most of the people are having shit life. If Ukrainians or people of Balkan are having good life, they wouldn't even think about wars. But western governments decided to treat us like shit so there you go. We are used to be cheap labour, prositutes and so on so there you go. If you fuck some Ukrainian prostitute for 10 Euros in Amsterdam, she probably has Russian origins and is ready for revenge one day. West hates Communism but only respects their fake borders. Wrong desicion by western governments for centuries...someone have to pay for all that now. While the west and NATO do bear responsibility for a lot of shit they aren't the ones who's tanks are rolling across the border of a sovereign nation. Nobody has wanted a war, there seems as little appetite for it in Russia as there is anywhere else. This once again is an argument between old privileged men that decent hard working people are about to pay the ultimate price for. I think this pretty much sums it up. It's not about West v East, no matter how many Putin sympathisers or neoconservatives think. It's always about that age old idea of empire building, wherever, whenever and inevitably always ends in war and destruction. Whether it's Nazi Germany, Britain, post-war US hegemony, Soviet Union or modern day Russia it always ends in bloodshed. You'd think after thousands of years of all this shit lessons would be learnt and that humanity progresses but it really never does. |
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Post by RocketMan on Feb 25, 2022 8:14:32 GMT -5
Here is my plan for everyone. How about to start to work something? If Ukraine both had pro-west and pro-russian governments and both did nothing, if USA and Russia are chosing governments in Ukraine, how about that one time they pick the right person for prime minister and president, share with them knowledge, help them with economy, corruption... If pro-western or pro-russian governments ever brought prosperity to this country, everyone would vote for that government again and nobody would care about war and country wouldn't be divided. I am talking from personal experience because situation is same here. We have dictator fully supported by west and now I supposed to be pro-west? The current situation is pretty easy to understand, Putin has made it pretty clear that to him Ukraine is historically a part of Russia and therefor has no right to exist as an independent country. Putin has revealed his cards so there’s no point in thinking that we’ll get out of this the easy way by making some sort of deal. He knows the west is weak right now, nobody wants to risk a direct confrontation. Also, this is all part of a Long Term Plan by Russia. Putin systemically killed of the opposition in Russia, giving him ultimate power over the last decade, completely turned on the propaganda machine in the media and most importantly: he started to destabilize the west. He interfered with the US election in 2016, he financed the brexit campaign, he financed right wing parties all over europe and now uses this position of power to create his legacy of bringing parts of the Sowjet Union back. |
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Post by shadowplay on Feb 25, 2022 8:18:10 GMT -5
Check out the opinions expressed here and the demographic of the people expressing them, particularly age www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60513632Eerily familiar and just shows people are the same everywhere. I'm of course not trying to suggest that everyone under a certain age is a good person and vice versa, but maybe there's hope that if we can just somehow muddle through long enough for most of the current old gits to lose their positions of power and the people who support them either die or get too old to matter the balance might just tip a bit across the world and global politics may become a lot more stable. We're either running head first towards annihilation or more optimistically this could be the final death throw from the bigoted, xenophobic, nationalistic old git generation trying to blow up one last shitstorm before they become irrelevent. |
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Post by glider on Feb 25, 2022 10:07:50 GMT -5
I'm not talking about here because this is an old thread, but I find the whole "WW3" stuff off-colour. It feels like Westerners can only express concern over something like this by acting as if tragedy of it is that it might one day escalate and affect them, rather than the fact that it's fucking awful even if it "only" stays localised to Eastern Europe. Maybe I'm over-thinking, but you know what I mean. Everyone's self righteous and morally superior until it's on their doorstep and they don't know how to act. |
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Post by The Invisible Sun on Feb 25, 2022 10:46:15 GMT -5
Russia and America's imperialism must end. The governments of these countries are evil. The people living within these countries must turn against their governments if they wish to pave way for a better world.
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5