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Post by matt on May 1, 2015 11:12:06 GMT -5
A party whose only policy will result in certain economic ruin I'm sceptical that their voters actually know, beyond immigration and the EU, what UKIP stands for. I read a summary of their environmental policies earlier; they are so absurd that I had to check the manifesto to be certain of their authenticity. A lot of their voters are very frustrated though and that's the fault of the mainstream parties, so it's not necessarily them not knowing anything. A lot of folk vote SNP here in Scotland because they are frustrated with the main parites, not particularly because the SNP are enlightnening or innovative in their policies (in fact, for an apparently socialist party, they have a funny way of showing it by wanting lower corporation taxes and the fact Alex Salmond - as fradulent as any politician in Westminster - has his tongue firmly entrenched up Murdoch's arse). It's easy to say UKIP voters are racist - that was my opinion until recently - but that's narrow minded and ignorant from me due to the fact that even though the areas with high UKIP support are predominantly white, it is mainly down to the fact that people can't escape their surroundings and are restricted to low wage jobs, what's more many of these places are isolated making it difficult to travel, making Westminster seem even more far away and out of touch. And those reasons are actually the same for SNP voters. My concern isn't towards UKIP in Scotland - we don't give them the time of day. As for SNP - well, take the offer of full fiscal autonomy if Westminster give it to you. That said, they only want it gradually and are sheepish about it now (they don't want to admit it but they would be faced with an £8 billion black hole in public finance) - yet they were campaigning for it just a few months ago in the referendum. Take it ya cowards - if you really think you are capable of running Scotland by yourself, take the option. I suspect they don't want it because if they do, they will be under the scrutiny of us Scots where they will have to make tough decisions which won't please many of us - they love power, but not power with any responsibility. If you can't accept that, go and join the rest of the Westminster cabal as you seem pretty adept already at deceit and lies. There is obviously no party in the entire UK which is adept at running the country - which is why we need a PR system. Only then can government be the true representative of the people, and the dominance of donors, banks (the entire financial sector) and media moguls (i.e. Murdoch) on governments will decline as they know they will not be able to influence policy decision so easily if there is a rainbow coalition of diverse views ranging from the left to right. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 12:18:51 GMT -5
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Post by supersonic1983 on May 1, 2015 12:28:29 GMT -5
A lot of their voters are very frustrated though. Aren't we all? |
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Post by tomlivesforever on May 1, 2015 12:29:21 GMT -5
So Noel doesn't like any of them but doesn't provide or suggest a solution or alternative. Stick to the music Noel. |
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Post by supersonic1983 on May 1, 2015 12:30:39 GMT -5
Here's what Noel makes of Miliband and Sturgeon. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool... |
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Post by tomlivesforever on May 1, 2015 12:33:28 GMT -5
I sort of hope we get a Conservative/UKIP coalition. It would be a fiasco, force a snap election in the autumn and might be the only thing that would rouse the middle classes from there slumber to force the Tories out.
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Post by defmaybe00 on May 1, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -5
I think Noel says things just to see people's reactions nowadays tbh  |
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Post by matt on May 1, 2015 15:26:07 GMT -5
Imagine Boris Johnson as opposition leader and Ed Miliband as PM and Salmond as Deputy PM - strangest PM Questions ever!
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Post by globe on May 2, 2015 2:30:10 GMT -5
I'm sceptical that their voters actually know, beyond immigration and the EU, what UKIP stands for. I read a summary of their environmental policies earlier; they are so absurd that I had to check the manifesto to be certain of their authenticity. A lot of their voters are very frustrated though and that's the fault of the mainstream parties, so it's not necessarily them not knowing anything. A lot of folk vote SNP here in Scotland because they are frustrated with the main parites, not particularly because the SNP are enlightnening or innovative in their policies (in fact, for an apparently socialist party, they have a funny way of showing it by wanting lower corporation taxes and the fact Alex Salmond - as fradulent as any politician in Westminster - has his tongue firmly entrenched up Murdoch's arse). It's easy to say UKIP voters are racist - that was my opinion until recently - but that's narrow minded and ignorant from me due to the fact that even though the areas with high UKIP support are predominantly white, it is mainly down to the fact that people can't escape their surroundings and are restricted to low wage jobs, what's more many of these places are isolated making it difficult to travel, making Westminster seem even more far away and out of touch. And those reasons are actually the same for SNP voters. My concern isn't towards UKIP in Scotland - we don't give them the time of day. As for SNP - well, take the offer of full fiscal autonomy if Westminster give it to you. That said, they only want it gradually and are sheepish about it now (they don't want to admit it but they would be faced with an £8 billion black hole in public finance) - yet they were campaigning for it just a few months ago in the referendum. Take it ya cowards - if you really think you are capable of running Scotland by yourself, take the option. I suspect they don't want it because if they do, they will be under the scrutiny of us Scots where they will have to make tough decisions which won't please many of us - they love power, but not power with any responsibility. If you can't accept that, go and join the rest of the Westminster cabal as you seem pretty adept already at deceit and lies. There is obviously no party in the entire UK which is adept at running the country - which is why we need a PR system. Only then can government be the true representative of the people, and the dominance of donors, banks (the entire financial sector) and media moguls (i.e. Murdoch) on governments will decline as they know they will not be able to influence policy decision so easily if there is a rainbow coalition of diverse views ranging from the left to right. Some interesting points of view there Matt, I have to completely disagree on a couple though. Anybody who blames immigration or migrants on the fact they are stuck in their surroundings and restricted to low wages etc quite frankly don't have the brains to be allowed to vote. It's not migrants who are to blame for that, it's government policies that create a situation where whole towns and areas are forgotten about and allowed to stagnate. More people leave the UK that come to it every year ffs. UKIP are the BNP in suits, anybody who can't see that is a vagina. On Scotland and the deficit. I disagree that it would be as high as 8 billion, but lets just say it's a "few billion" OK? How much of that few billion could we claw back if we did't have to pay for schemes like Tridant and HS2 and pointless wars? Or if we could sell our natural resources to what would be left of the UK? Or if we had policies in place that got whole areas of the country that have been left to rot back to work and contributing to the economy instead of having to rely on benefits? |
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Post by matt on May 2, 2015 10:29:05 GMT -5
A lot of their voters are very frustrated though and that's the fault of the mainstream parties, so it's not necessarily them not knowing anything. A lot of folk vote SNP here in Scotland because they are frustrated with the main parites, not particularly because the SNP are enlightnening or innovative in their policies (in fact, for an apparently socialist party, they have a funny way of showing it by wanting lower corporation taxes and the fact Alex Salmond - as fradulent as any politician in Westminster - has his tongue firmly entrenched up Murdoch's arse). It's easy to say UKIP voters are racist - that was my opinion until recently - but that's narrow minded and ignorant from me due to the fact that even though the areas with high UKIP support are predominantly white, it is mainly down to the fact that people can't escape their surroundings and are restricted to low wage jobs, what's more many of these places are isolated making it difficult to travel, making Westminster seem even more far away and out of touch. And those reasons are actually the same for SNP voters. My concern isn't towards UKIP in Scotland - we don't give them the time of day. As for SNP - well, take the offer of full fiscal autonomy if Westminster give it to you. That said, they only want it gradually and are sheepish about it now (they don't want to admit it but they would be faced with an £8 billion black hole in public finance) - yet they were campaigning for it just a few months ago in the referendum. Take it ya cowards - if you really think you are capable of running Scotland by yourself, take the option. I suspect they don't want it because if they do, they will be under the scrutiny of us Scots where they will have to make tough decisions which won't please many of us - they love power, but not power with any responsibility. If you can't accept that, go and join the rest of the Westminster cabal as you seem pretty adept already at deceit and lies. There is obviously no party in the entire UK which is adept at running the country - which is why we need a PR system. Only then can government be the true representative of the people, and the dominance of donors, banks (the entire financial sector) and media moguls (i.e. Murdoch) on governments will decline as they know they will not be able to influence policy decision so easily if there is a rainbow coalition of diverse views ranging from the left to right. Some interesting points of view there Matt, I have to completely disagree on a couple though. Anybody who blames immigration or migrants on the fact they are stuck in their surroundings and restricted to low wages etc quite frankly don't have the brains to be allowed to vote. It's not migrants who are to blame for that, it's government policies that create a situation where whole towns and areas are forgotten about and allowed to stagnate. More people leave the UK that come to it every year ffs. UKIP are the BNP in suits, anybody who can't see that is a vagina. On Scotland and the deficit. I disagree that it would be as high as 8 billion, but lets just say it's a "few billion" OK? How much of that few billion could we claw back if we did't have to pay for schemes like Tridant and HS2 and pointless wars? Or if we could sell our natural resources to what would be left of the UK? Or if we had policies in place that got whole areas of the country that have been left to rot back to work and contributing to the economy instead of having to rely on benefits? Good points globe and I do agree on a lot of them - you are obviously going to get your bigots who vote UKIP on the basis they hate immigration, but it's interesting the rise of UKIP has only happened in a time when the government hasn't given any consideration for many of these people, and I think a lot of people are just tired with a low wage economy with no strategy as to how to deal with it, hence the reverting against the status quo for going towards UKIP, who are (unrealistically obviously) promising heaven and earth for constituents. I also agree with the ridiculous schemes we have to pay for - especially HS2 which is only for the benefit of London. But if we were to get full fiscal autonomy, proportionally our spending would be higher than the UK in general, which means we would have to make much more severe cuts. I know that poorer children in Scotland are less likely to make it into universities than those in England, and there have been numerous cut backs in services like the police, so leaving aside vanity projects like HS2 and inefficient Trident programmes, I can't see how Scotland can make up the deficit without making cuts, and raising taxes for highest earners and massive corporations - the SNP want to actually lower taxes for corporations which seems at odds with what they preach. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 10:58:03 GMT -5
In regards to Noel's comment - as an anarcho-communist (or anarcho-socialist, or libertarian socialist or anarcho-collectivist ect...) let me say in no way do I approve of Ed Miliband and he is VERY MUCH a capitalist.
On UKIP, I think they are basically partly a knee-jerk reaction of the disenfranchised, partly a refuge of the ignorant, and mostly a media produced spectacle to make people feel there are alternatives within government.
As to the election, the only thing I'm really interested in is whether Caroline Lucas keeps her seat, but it should make for good entertainment.
Btw for any Americans, what are typical attitudes towards Fox News in the US?
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 2, 2015 12:43:47 GMT -5
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Post by globe on May 2, 2015 15:46:56 GMT -5
Some interesting points of view there Matt, I have to completely disagree on a couple though. Anybody who blames immigration or migrants on the fact they are stuck in their surroundings and restricted to low wages etc quite frankly don't have the brains to be allowed to vote. It's not migrants who are to blame for that, it's government policies that create a situation where whole towns and areas are forgotten about and allowed to stagnate. More people leave the UK that come to it every year ffs. UKIP are the BNP in suits, anybody who can't see that is a vagina. On Scotland and the deficit. I disagree that it would be as high as 8 billion, but lets just say it's a "few billion" OK? How much of that few billion could we claw back if we did't have to pay for schemes like Tridant and HS2 and pointless wars? Or if we could sell our natural resources to what would be left of the UK? Or if we had policies in place that got whole areas of the country that have been left to rot back to work and contributing to the economy instead of having to rely on benefits? Good points globe and I do agree on a lot of them - you are obviously going to get your bigots who vote UKIP on the basis they hate immigration, but it's interesting the rise of UKIP has only happened in a time when the government hasn't given any consideration for many of these people, and I think a lot of people are just tired with a low wage economy with no strategy as to how to deal with it, hence the reverting against the status quo for going towards UKIP, who are (unrealistically obviously) promising heaven and earth for constituents. I also agree with the ridiculous schemes we have to pay for - especially HS2 which is only for the benefit of London. But if we were to get full fiscal autonomy, proportionally our spending would be higher than the UK in general, which means we would have to make much more severe cuts. I know that poorer children in Scotland are less likely to make it into universities than those in England, and there have been numerous cut backs in services like the police, so leaving aside vanity projects like HS2 and inefficient Trident programmes, I can't see how Scotland can make up the deficit without making cuts, and raising taxes for highest earners and massive corporations - the SNP want to actually lower taxes for corporations which seems at odds with what they preach. Good points mate. |
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Post by matt on May 2, 2015 15:53:50 GMT -5
My final prediction is:
Tories to be largest party, propped up by Lib Dems again - but not enough to form a majority. Whether Labour and SNP vote against that coalition in the Queen's Speech remains to be seen - if Labour can get enough seats though, but having the Tories leading the way once again will only leave to a much more polarised United Kingdom.
It's depressing - as a Scot, the Tories don't speak to me and never appeal to me while they stoke English nationalism by slating the SNP, vice versa with the SNP slating the Tories.
I'll admit... I'm voting Lib Dem like the last time. In no way am I an ardent supporter of them who will defend them at any cost, but I do believe in their fundamental principles of federalism (just stopping short of independence) and electoral reform. In addition to this, I do believe they have restrained the Tories from doing their worst and offered real alternative to the corporate hegemony in the UK, offering innovative green communitarian policies to temper the big energy companies (the Tories intent on destroying this policy though) and (along with Labour intent on destroying his media empire) going against Murdoch's News Corp - tax dodging pals of the Tories and SNP who have damaged Britain culturally and politically.
For a start, such attitudes to big corporations is what is needed in the UK who are running riot over us citizens and being brutally honest, an ideal coalition of Labour-Lib Dem would be my preference. Politicians won't want to admit it but they don't have much power in today's world, and setting such a precedent will be able to give powers back to the government. For me, they are the realistic choice.
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Post by matt on May 2, 2015 15:57:06 GMT -5
Good points globe and I do agree on a lot of them - you are obviously going to get your bigots who vote UKIP on the basis they hate immigration, but it's interesting the rise of UKIP has only happened in a time when the government hasn't given any consideration for many of these people, and I think a lot of people are just tired with a low wage economy with no strategy as to how to deal with it, hence the reverting against the status quo for going towards UKIP, who are (unrealistically obviously) promising heaven and earth for constituents. I also agree with the ridiculous schemes we have to pay for - especially HS2 which is only for the benefit of London. But if we were to get full fiscal autonomy, proportionally our spending would be higher than the UK in general, which means we would have to make much more severe cuts. I know that poorer children in Scotland are less likely to make it into universities than those in England, and there have been numerous cut backs in services like the police, so leaving aside vanity projects like HS2 and inefficient Trident programmes, I can't see how Scotland can make up the deficit without making cuts, and raising taxes for highest earners and massive corporations - the SNP want to actually lower taxes for corporations which seems at odds with what they preach. Good points mate. By the way globe, I don't begrudge your support of SNP at all - I realise that for your constituency, they've done a good job. Anyway, I like Nicola Sturgeon as a leader, even if I don't agree with her, but she is principled and stands for what she believs in. For me, I can't vote SNP, as they have taken powers away from the council in my constituency - it's no surprise we are voting differently considering Dundee and Orkney were poles apart in the referedum! Orkney had the biggest margin of NO, while Dundee had the biggest margin of YES! |
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Post by matt on May 2, 2015 16:02:31 GMT -5
In regards to Noel's comment - as an anarcho-communist (or anarcho-socialist, or libertarian socialist or anarcho-collectivist ect...) let me say in no way do I approve of Ed Miliband and he is VERY MUCH a capitalist. On UKIP, I think they are basically partly a knee-jerk reaction of the disenfranchised, partly a refuge of the ignorant, and mostly a media produced spectacle to make people feel there are alternatives within government. As to the election, the only thing I'm really interested in is whether Caroline Lucas keeps her seat, but it should make for good entertainment. Btw for any Americans, what are typical attitudes towards Fox News in the US? You don't believe in capitalism? Do you not benefit at ALL from a capitalist society. Surely the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, the food we buy from the big supermarkets.... the computer you are typing on? The majority of us are writing these things on here from a laptop made in a sweatshop in the far east. In no way am I condoning that, but I hear rose tinted communist mates going on about it while they don't realise how contradictory their stances are. I believe in capitalism, but I believe in a restrained capitalism - not the crazed neoliberal Thatcherite conception of it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 17:08:10 GMT -5
In regards to Noel's comment - as an anarcho-communist (or anarcho-socialist, or libertarian socialist or anarcho-collectivist ect...) let me say in no way do I approve of Ed Miliband and he is VERY MUCH a capitalist. On UKIP, I think they are basically partly a knee-jerk reaction of the disenfranchised, partly a refuge of the ignorant, and mostly a media produced spectacle to make people feel there are alternatives within government. As to the election, the only thing I'm really interested in is whether Caroline Lucas keeps her seat, but it should make for good entertainment. Btw for any Americans, what are typical attitudes towards Fox News in the US? You don't believe in capitalism? Do you not benefit at ALL from a capitalist society. Surely the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, the food we buy from the big supermarkets.... the computer you are typing on? The majority of us are writing these things on here from a laptop made in a sweatshop in the far east. In no way am I condoning that, but I hear rose tinted communist mates going on about it while they don't realise how contradictory their stances are. I believe in capitalism, but I believe in a restrained capitalism - not the crazed neoliberal Thatcherite conception of it. No I don't, and I don't really understand your argument haha  To clarify I don't hate capitalism but think it inferior for various reasons - such as my opposition to hierarchy and private "property", although it is good for raising standards of living and widespread production....also, not to be too pretentious, I object to it on a somewhat spiritual ground - I'm pretty much a Buddhist (without the reincarnation ideas) and I don't like the idea of a society based on personal material gain. Also exploitation of labour, consumerism, media control, corporate power, wage slavery, and the idea that the ideal worker/consumer for a ruling economic class is one who is paranoid, alienated and insecure. I believe we should evolve through direct voluntary action (over a long period of time) to an anarcho-communist ideal. Nice to hear someone react to the dreaded word communist without saying Soviet Russia or comparing me to Stalin though |
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Post by matt on May 2, 2015 17:44:46 GMT -5
You don't believe in capitalism? Do you not benefit at ALL from a capitalist society. Surely the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, the food we buy from the big supermarkets.... the computer you are typing on? The majority of us are writing these things on here from a laptop made in a sweatshop in the far east. In no way am I condoning that, but I hear rose tinted communist mates going on about it while they don't realise how contradictory their stances are. I believe in capitalism, but I believe in a restrained capitalism - not the crazed neoliberal Thatcherite conception of it. No I don't, and I don't really understand your argument haha To clarify I don't hate capitalism but think it inferior for various reasons - such as my opposition to hierarchy and private "property", although it is good for raising standards of living and widespread production....also, not to be too pretentious, I object to it on a somewhat spiritual ground - I'm pretty much a Buddhist (without the reincarnation ideas) and I don't like the idea of a society based on personal material gain. Also exploitation of labour, consumerism, media control, corporate power, wage slavery, and the idea that the ideal worker/consumer for a ruling economic class is one who is paranoid, alienated and insecure. I believe we should evolve through direct voluntary action (over a long period of time) to an anarcho-communist ideal. Nice to hear someone react to the dreaded word communist without saying Soviet Russia or comparing me to Stalin though Haha, fair enough, I list all those thing as I think that level of consumerism is something most of us have benefited from. I do believe you are right in noting exploitation of labour, consumerism, media control, corporate power, wage slavery, etc, etc, but I believe you can tackle a lot of the abuses of this within the confines of a capitalist system. I don't believe the Tories care for how damaging this has been - it's pure material gain and the profit margin is ALL that matters with the Tories. This is really depressing I'm sure you'd agree! |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 19:19:41 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 4:35:49 GMT -5
No I don't, and I don't really understand your argument haha To clarify I don't hate capitalism but think it inferior for various reasons - such as my opposition to hierarchy and private "property", although it is good for raising standards of living and widespread production....also, not to be too pretentious, I object to it on a somewhat spiritual ground - I'm pretty much a Buddhist (without the reincarnation ideas) and I don't like the idea of a society based on personal material gain. Also exploitation of labour, consumerism, media control, corporate power, wage slavery, and the idea that the ideal worker/consumer for a ruling economic class is one who is paranoid, alienated and insecure. I believe we should evolve through direct voluntary action (over a long period of time) to an anarcho-communist ideal. Nice to hear someone react to the dreaded word communist without saying Soviet Russia or comparing me to Stalin though Haha, fair enough, I list all those thing as I think that level of consumerism is something most of us have benefited from. I do believe you are right in noting exploitation of labour, consumerism, media control, corporate power, wage slavery, etc, etc, but I believe you can tackle a lot of the abuses of this within the confines of a capitalist system. I don't believe the Tories care for how damaging this has been - it's pure material gain and the profit margin is ALL that matters with the Tories. This is really depressing I'm sure you'd agree! On a material level, yes we have (the consumers) benefitted from consumerism - but the downsides are enormous. Motivating people with largely unnessacary material gain, constant playing on insecurities to made them feel they need things, the omniscience of advertising (I think the average person goes through 1600 advertisements a day) and like I said - insecure, scared people are perfect for the economy, to name but a few. I have no doubt that many of those issues (exploitation of labour ect...) can be dealt with (though not all) but still I would reject capitalism as heirarchal, unfair, corrosive on a human level, and not sustainably compatible with democracy. It should be noted that what we are currently under has exploited the concepts of capitalism enormously - the idea is that businesses that aren't serving the people should go bankrupt, instead they rule the world. I would agree most Conservatives don't sympathise with the people, but how much could they really do if they did? I wouldn't place much faith in the power of government nor would I differentiate between the parties that much. |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on May 3, 2015 12:37:13 GMT -5
Noel knows bugger all about politics, and clearly, if you think the Tories should win this election (after their destructive incompetence over the last five years has led to the national debt rising to £1.4trillion, 900,000 people using food banks, 700,000 in zero hours contracts, and 400,000 disabled people being hit by the inherently evil "bedroom tax") then neither do you. |
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Post by theyknowwhatimean on May 3, 2015 12:39:46 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 16:38:18 GMT -5
It almost seems like Nick Clegg doesn't give a shit anymore...
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 17:06:39 GMT -5
It almost seems like Nick Clegg doesn't give a shit anymore... That's because no one gives a shit about Nick Clegg anymore... |
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2015 17:09:50 GMT -5
It almost seems like Nick Clegg doesn't give a shit anymore... That's because no one gives a shit about Nick Clegg anymore... You should tweet that to him. |
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Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5
Nov 4, 2024 5:04:30 GMT -5