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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 14:15:33 GMT -5
I think you're right about the materialism in that it makes people insecure and they have to buy the 'next big thing', or update their phone every month , etc. I'm not particularly materialistic but I do benefit greatly from a globalised society enough to know I can't possibly be communist - given the globalised culture of today which I have taken advantage of. I look at communism and there's not one place in the world where it has ever worked. I realise you're approach is different but, for a start, centralisation isn't efficient in today's economy what with society being so fragmented and diverse, and besides, it would cost a bomb to carry out such reforms, and what with today's rising debt of £1.5 trillion rising and rising, there's no way such reforms would pay off that and would only add to that - and clearing the debt is the major priority for this country. You also see with Greece - with their extreme left leader - that they are finding it impossible to carry out desired reforms because the country has so many vested interests in essentially capitalist means (i.e. EU) that makes them entrenched in a capitalist system. Their hands are tied basically, and their socialist Prime Minister Alexis Sipris has resorted to calling out Germany for reparations from WWII he is that desperate! Essentially, if the Green Party were voted in, they would be the same - their fantasy manifesto would be constrained by the reality that they would have to face up to (yet fail to do so). They're not communist by any means, but it just goes to show any extreme alternative doesn't have answers - and my opinion is that you can revert from the current status quo within the confines of capitalism, it's just that the parties NEED to give us something to believe in. For a start, a PR electoral system where every vote counts would go some way to making up the democratic deficit. For example, your concerns about multicorporations running riot over citizens can be tempered in a PR system, partly because they include large donors to a political party, and usually the one party in majority control (as we have under First Past The Post) curries favour with them letting them do anything they want because they are helping that said party to stay in power. In a PR government - a rainbow coalition - that wouldn't be acceptable. There would be a vast range of opinions there that it would be impossible for large donors to try and curry favour with a government. Of all the mainstream leaders, only Nick Clegg makes the most sense - two fundamental principles of the Lib Dems is proportional representation and federalism. With the mainstream parties, they are the most radical party of all, and the much more realistic option to genuine change. I'll go through your points one by one to make it easier haha 1. What benefits of globalisation do you feel you would not recieve under an anarcho-communist ideal? 2. Communism has certainly never been applied, Marxism has been attempted and was hijacked (ala Animal Farm) but I'm not a Marxist. Also it is questionable how authentic the aims of any "communist" revolution has been. Thirdly it is important to stress I am an Anarcho-Communist, therefore we must not argue on what we agree on (Marxism won't work) and look at different parts of history. Anarcho-Communism, or at least it's ideas and methods, has been applied and has been successful - famously in The Paris Commune. This eventually fell under western pressure (they had to create what was basically a government to survive - but were killed anyway) but before the west got involved, it was moving successfully to Anarcho-Communism. 3. It is true that AnCom is not realistic in today's world - but the idea is evolution, not revolution. Over a long period of time we should progress towards a general ideal. This can be done only from the bottom up (starting with the individual), unlike a Marxist I don't trust a government to dismantle itself. Greece and the Greens are change from the top down, which leads to the failure you describe. 4. I agree a PR system would be an improvement, but I still don't consider government democracy - or at least nessacery. I don't think it is possible to reap the benefits of globalisation with anarcho-communism. The markets upon which globalisation is based upon wouldn't tolerate it for a second and it would become so volatile that businesses upon which we are all dependent on would make a quick exit from the country to more stable countries in Europe and the EU. I don't agree with yourself - nothing personal and your arguments are very good, but I disagree only for the reason that I'm pessimistic if any radical change is at all possible.
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Post by ManofMisery on May 6, 2015 16:17:11 GMT -5
SNP just short of 50 Lib Dems 30 UKIP 3 Greens 1
Hoping SNP/LAB (ulikely) or LAB minority. Can see CON/LIB again though.
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 16:25:33 GMT -5
I do hope the BNP votes on here are a piss take!
I came across an Oasis fan in a pub in Aberdeen, then he went on about supporting BNP - enough to say it soured the conversation massively.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 6, 2015 17:08:01 GMT -5
I'm still predicting CON/LIB-DEMS
I'm sincerely hoping against LAB/SNP
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 17:21:32 GMT -5
I'd just like to remind anybody who is voting tomorrow that the polling station isn't another elimination thread and you're not voting to eliminate parties or candidates. I don't want to hear any stories of people who put a cross next to the BNP thinking that they're eliminating them.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 6, 2015 17:22:52 GMT -5
Like the British Parliament, I'm well hung. Sorry. As you were.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 17:25:58 GMT -5
I do hope the BNP votes on here are a piss take! I came across an Oasis fan in a pub in Aberdeen, then he went on about supporting BNP - enough to say it soured the conversation massively. I know one of the votes for the BNP is from The Escapist which is a pisstake. As for the other one I've no idea who it was. A BNP supporting Oasis fan? His favourite album must be Heathen Chemistry.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 17:56:21 GMT -5
I'll go through your points one by one to make it easier haha 1. What benefits of globalisation do you feel you would not recieve under an anarcho-communist ideal? 2. Communism has certainly never been applied, Marxism has been attempted and was hijacked (ala Animal Farm) but I'm not a Marxist. Also it is questionable how authentic the aims of any "communist" revolution has been. Thirdly it is important to stress I am an Anarcho-Communist, therefore we must not argue on what we agree on (Marxism won't work) and look at different parts of history. Anarcho-Communism, or at least it's ideas and methods, has been applied and has been successful - famously in The Paris Commune. This eventually fell under western pressure (they had to create what was basically a government to survive - but were killed anyway) but before the west got involved, it was moving successfully to Anarcho-Communism. 3. It is true that AnCom is not realistic in today's world - but the idea is evolution, not revolution. Over a long period of time we should progress towards a general ideal. This can be done only from the bottom up (starting with the individual), unlike a Marxist I don't trust a government to dismantle itself. Greece and the Greens are change from the top down, which leads to the failure you describe. 4. I agree a PR system would be an improvement, but I still don't consider government democracy - or at least nessacery. I don't think it is possible to reap the benefits of globalisation with anarcho-communism. The markets upon which globalisation is based upon wouldn't tolerate it for a second and it would become so volatile that businesses upon which we are all dependent on would make a quick exit from the country to more stable countries in Europe and the EU. Are you saying that if Britain were, in some way, to become Anarcho-Communist the markets and businesses we depend on and that bring us the benefits of globalisation would stop operating there? Not being faecitious, just don't want to answer an argument you didn't make
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 17:58:37 GMT -5
(And now, a party political broadcast on behalf of the Anarchists) As Election Day is about to begin, a friendly reminder that things can be better.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 18:02:42 GMT -5
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 18:45:42 GMT -5
I don't think it is possible to reap the benefits of globalisation with anarcho-communism. The markets upon which globalisation is based upon wouldn't tolerate it for a second and it would become so volatile that businesses upon which we are all dependent on would make a quick exit from the country to more stable countries in Europe and the EU. Are you saying that if Britain were, in some way, to become Anarcho-Communist the markets and businesses we depend on and that bring us the benefits of globalisation would stop operating there? Not being faecitious, just don't want to answer an argument you didn't make Most definitely would not be possible without a government, let alone an unstable government. The interdependent markets will probably even fall in the next few days as someone tries to form a government that is how volatile it is.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 6, 2015 19:03:01 GMT -5
Are you saying that if Britain were, in some way, to become Anarcho-Communist the markets and businesses we depend on and that bring us the benefits of globalisation would stop operating there? Not being faecitious, just don't want to answer an argument you didn't make Most definitely would not be possible without a government, let alone an unstable government. The markets will probably even fall in the next few years as someone tries to form a government that is how volatile it is. Even if it's the status quo of CON/LIB-DEMS?
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 19:22:14 GMT -5
Most definitely would not be possible without a government, let alone an unstable government. The markets will probably even fall in the next few years as someone tries to form a government that is how volatile it is. Even if it's the status quo of CON/LIB-DEMS? They won't crash, but they will certainly they will shift downwards, albeit subtly - it will only get worse if, for example, a stalemate continues for a few weeks with no government. But if tomorrow returned a stable majority CON/LIB DEM, I think it would be safe to say they wouldn't shift, just like the last time governments have been returned. I don't think both parties will have enough seats to be able to form a majority though.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 19:31:41 GMT -5
The longer it takes to form a government, the more chance the markets have of falling. Political uncertainty causes market instability.
Without wanting to get into a debate about an EU referendum, the uncertainty it would create is enough to put me off having one.
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 20:37:47 GMT -5
The longer it takes to form a government, the more chance the markets have of falling. Political uncertainty causes market instability. Without wanting to get into a debate about an EU referendum, the uncertainty it would create is enough to put me off having one. Sick to death of referendums, the last thing we need is that!
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Post by mkoasis on May 6, 2015 20:40:22 GMT -5
Well, let's hope it goes alright for you people tomorrow. Funnily enough, miracles can and do happen - we just had one yesterday. That said, no one's particularly enthused about anyone's platform this time.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on May 6, 2015 20:58:49 GMT -5
For the most part in the US, polls tend to be practically accurate.
But if I remember correctly from this past fall, the polls were vastly off base as the SNP got trounced. How are polls usually in the UK, and is there a chance of a repeat "surprise" with the actual results again tomorrow?
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 21:26:18 GMT -5
For the most part in the US, polls tend to be practically accurate. But if I remember correctly from this past fall, the polls were vastly off base as the SNP got trounced. How are polls usually in the UK, and is there a chance of a repeat "surprise" with the actual results again tomorrow? They usually are spot on, though in 1992 all polls predicted Labour to win, and somehow John Major got a majority for the Tories. I think with today's polling, it is generally more sophisticated and accurate what with digital media and all that, but this election is so volatile and exceptional to ones previously that it *just might* catch the polls by surprise. A lot of undecided voters you see, but if I was to bet on it, I'm thinking these undecided are going to be all alone in the voting booth later on and mark 'X' next to the Conservatives as they see them as the risk averse option - that's not me endorsing the Tories, it is simply because polling suggests voters see the Tories as the strongest on the economy, and if there is one mantra that will forever ring true in politics...... "It's the economy stupid!".
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Post by jakob61907 on May 6, 2015 22:15:17 GMT -5
For the most part in the US, polls tend to be practically accurate. But if I remember correctly from this past fall, the polls were vastly off base as the SNP got trounced. How are polls usually in the UK, and is there a chance of a repeat "surprise" with the actual results again tomorrow? They usually are spot on, though in 1992 all polls predicted Labour to win, and somehow John Major got a majority for the Tories. I think with today's polling, it is generally more sophisticated and accurate what with digital media and all that, but this election is so volatile and exceptional to ones previously that it *just might* catch the polls by surprise. A lot of undecided voters you see, but if I was to bet on it, I'm thinking these undecided are going to be all alone in the voting booth later on and mark 'X' next to the Conservatives as they see them as the risk averse option - that's not me endorsing the Tories, it is simply because polling suggests voters see the Tories as the strongest on the economy, and if there is one mantra that will forever ring true in politics...... "It's the economy stupid!". Has the economy not got vastly worse since the Conservatives got in? The deficit has grew when they said it'd do the opposite and they've borrowed more money in 3 years than Labour did in 13 years. I don't get the "Coservatives are good for the economy"
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Post by jakob61907 on May 6, 2015 22:19:36 GMT -5
A mate who I trust said to me; “You know what this election boils down to? Who do you want to be protesting against on May 8th? Or whenever they finish counting, negotiating and posturing?
David Cameron and a Tory coalition or Ed Miliband and one led by Labour?”
I suppose, implicitly my argument has always been – the Tories – let them wrench out the organs of the nation with such ferocity and contempt that usually phlegmatic people are dragged into the war against the establishment by the dreadful, eviscerating G-force.
The conservatives are such cinematic villains, the Etonian gits with their Freudian slips; the “West Villa United” supporting, “career-defining”, Darth Vader toffs. If you’re auditioning for heads on spikes “come the great day”, there’s no competition.
Like the fierce and exciting Nicola Sturgeon, or anyone with ears, I thought the difference between the two main parties was insufficient. Ed Miliband’s campaign manager, David Axelrod – a more appropriate name for a spin-doctor it’s difficult to imagine – he may as well be called Zach Huxter, is the bloke who delivered unto us Barack Obama; a tidal wave of potent promise that became a drab damp patch of disappointment. If that doesn’t induce a sigh of impotent lassitude you’ve got more “Yes We Can optimism” than Rolf Harris’s art dealer.
In the episode of The Trews in which I interviewed Ed Miliband there is no Damascene moment. I did not tumble back in a white beam of enlightened reverie, scales falling, realising that the Westminster machine, with a different pilot will serve ordinary people. We decided to endorse Labour before we approached them for the interview.
The simple truth is I don’t have a “ready to wear” system of government to offer people on May 8th and neither does anyone else I’ve yet spoken to.
My fundamentalist abstemiousness became untenable because of mates making practical pleas of varying import;
1. “My brother has MS, if the Tories get in, his independent Living Fund will be cut and he’ll have to go in a home or move into mine…” 2. “My kids can’t do a production at school because of budget cuts…” 3. “My daughter can’t go to university because we can’t afford to pay a student loan back…” 4. “Our drug treatment day care program is being shut down due to cuts…
In the grand scheme of Revolution these are small problems, I agree, small problems that can be somewhat assuaged with the small solution of getting rid of the Tories.
Ultimately what I feel, is that by not removing the Tories, through an unwillingness to participate in the “masquerade of democracy”, I was implicitly expecting the most vulnerable people in society to pay the price on my behalf while I pondered alternatives in luxury.
The reason I didn’t suggest it sooner is because, twerp that I am, I have hope. I really do believe that real, radical change is possible that the tyranny of giant, transnational corporations can be ended, that ecological melt-down in pursuit of imaginary money can be arrested and reversed, that an ideology that aspires to more than materialism, individualism and profit can be realised and practiced.
People that know a lot more about this than me, and probably you, advised me that we’ll be better off rucking with a Labour government than a Conservative one – if that strikes you as a pitiful choice, more sympathetic I could not be – but some people are facing much worse dilemmas than reneging on a puritanical political stance.
Does this country need a radical new political movement? An equivalent of Syriza in Greece or Podemos in Spain? It feels like it does and when the next administration fails to deliver because of the limitations of parliamentary politics I’ll happily participate in setting it up. With you.
Do we need an international confederation of new political alliances that are committed to real change, real democracy, a revolutionary alternative to capitalism? That can challenge the IMF, WTO, WBO and all the other global acronyms so portentous and phony they may as well be the wrestling federations they sound like? Of course we do, my schedule’s pretty clear, I’ll join in. Will you?
What Ed Miliband said on The Trews that seemed positive is that his government will be responsive to activism and campaigning. That will be pretty easy to evaluate quickly. Are media monopolies being broken up? Are the urgently needed houses being built? Is austerity continuing? Is the NHS still being privatised? Are we still blaming immigrants, the disabled and disadvantaged for massive economic problems that they can’t have created? Is domestic policy being dictated by unelected elites in the financial and corporate world?
If the answer is yes then you know that democracy in its current form is near redundant, that we are not offered reasonable alternatives and that parties that try to, like the Greens are stymied to the point irrelevance by ancient electoral architecture.
My position will not have changed on May 8th, I’ll be doing my best to amplify movements I believe in, from housing, to trade unions, football fan campaigns, social enterprises, digital activism, student occupations, organic agriculture, crypto-currencies; the same things I’m doing today, the things I’ve been learning about for the last 18 months; since I said I don’t vote on the telly.
My recommendation that people vote Labour is an optimistic punt that the degeneration of Britain will be slowed down and the lives of the most vulnerable will be a little more bearable than they’d’ve been under the Tories.
Nothing more ambitious than that.
It will take serious activism, committed action comparable to the sacrifice of those whose memories are continually evoked as a spur for us to vote. The women who died for that right, the people all over the world branded terrorists and imprisoned or executed for demanding democracy.
I fully understand that real change, real democracy is not something that can be palmed off in a booth twice a decade, a crossed box and crossed fingers. Democracy is for life, not just elections.
By Russell Brand
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Post by mkoasis on May 6, 2015 22:54:43 GMT -5
As for Noel's comment: Milliband a communist? I don't know too much about him but it seems an odd comment from the man once famed for "power to the people" at the BRITS in 95 or 96?
What that does tell me about Milliband is that he probably has the fire and fight to go after people like Murdoch and the tax dodgers who exploit the system and prey upon citizens. So calling him a communist is actually endorsement enough for me.
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 22:56:27 GMT -5
They usually are spot on, though in 1992 all polls predicted Labour to win, and somehow John Major got a majority for the Tories. I think with today's polling, it is generally more sophisticated and accurate what with digital media and all that, but this election is so volatile and exceptional to ones previously that it *just might* catch the polls by surprise. A lot of undecided voters you see, but if I was to bet on it, I'm thinking these undecided are going to be all alone in the voting booth later on and mark 'X' next to the Conservatives as they see them as the risk averse option - that's not me endorsing the Tories, it is simply because polling suggests voters see the Tories as the strongest on the economy, and if there is one mantra that will forever ring true in politics...... "It's the economy stupid!". Has the economy not got vastly worse since the Conservatives got in? The deficit has grew when they said it'd do the opposite and they've borrowed more money in 3 years than Labour did in 13 years. I don't get the "Coservatives are good for the economy" Not quite - the debt and deficit are two different things remember. The deficit has been halved since the Tories came in - remember the deficit is how much we are spending compared to what we are receiving, so the Tories have cut spending enough to half what Labour had been spending. That is of course where austerity comes in - cutting spending. Another way is raising taxes to cut the deficit - but that's not a Tory position - if the Lib Dems were a much stronger party with more seats, we may have seen the highest earners pay a bit more in taxes, but we have to remember they were only a minority partner with very limited influence. As we continue to run a deficit, the debt keeps rising and rising, as it is doing now, As soon as we start operating a surplus where we as a country are making a profit, only then will the debt be reduced. The Tories argue that they are cutting the deficit, which they believe indicates they are on the right path to operating a surplus. Their argument is that the SNP and Labour will raise the deficit again like Gordon Brown had done.
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Post by matt on May 6, 2015 22:58:47 GMT -5
As for Noel's comment: Milliband a communist? I don't know too much about him but it seems an odd comment from the man once famed for "power to the people" at the BRITS in 95 or 96? What that does tell me about Milliband is that he probably has the fire and fight to go after people like Murdoch and the tax dodgers who exploit the system and prey upon citizens. So calling him a communist is actually endorsement enough for me. Anyone who Murdoch supports puts big question marks over that party. There are definitely shady goings on with SNP and the Tories - both parties willing to block Labour and the Lib Dems plans of dismantling his empire (great great policies from these two) and introduce favourable policies for him.
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Post by mkoasis on May 6, 2015 23:05:11 GMT -5
Has the economy not got vastly worse since the Conservatives got in? The deficit has grew when they said it'd do the opposite and they've borrowed more money in 3 years than Labour did in 13 years. I don't get the "Coservatives are good for the economy" I know!! They ALWAYS play that card and repeat it over and over and loudly so that people start to believe it must be true.
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Post by globe on May 7, 2015 1:31:05 GMT -5
The Lib Dems will get crushed. They will be lucky to have 10 seats left.
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