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Post by tomlivesforever on Jul 22, 2012 6:17:18 GMT -5
Love all the talk about what they are going to do with him rather than tackling the problems that could prevent it happening again. Its awful and tragic but no one should be shocked by it, when you give everyone access to guns its going to happen. then howcome it doesn't happen in switzerland? Because Switzerland has a completely different national identity and attitude to gun ownership. The origins of gun ownership come from the country being the victim of foreign aggression and more or less converting the the civilian population into a militia army for its defense. The two cases aren't really comparable, America's attitude is deeply different as is the gun culture that exists there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 6:25:07 GMT -5
then howcome it doesn't happen in switzerland? Because Switzerland has a completely different national identity and attitude to gun ownership. The origins of gun ownership come from the country being the victim of foreign aggression and more or less converting the the civilian population into a militia army for its defense. The two cases aren't really comparable, America's attitude is deeply different as is the gun culture that exists there. but you claim that access to guns is the reason it happens, all i'm pointing out is that it is more complicated, i am in favour of better gun control in the states but the only way it is going to happen is if the US culture is taken into consideration in the debate and that serious proposals are put forward that the average gun lover could support.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Jul 22, 2012 6:29:16 GMT -5
Because Switzerland has a completely different national identity and attitude to gun ownership. The origins of gun ownership come from the country being the victim of foreign aggression and more or less converting the the civilian population into a militia army for its defense. The two cases aren't really comparable, America's attitude is deeply different as is the gun culture that exists there. but you claim that access to guns is the reason it happens, all i'm pointing out is that it is more complicated, i am in favour of better gun control in the states but the only way it is going to happen is if the US culture is taken into consideration in the debate and that serious proposals are put forward that the average gun lover could support. Well access to guns and the culture and attitude around them. America's gun culture is appalling and there isn't the will to do anything to reverse it. I think it would take a huge amount of massacre's to actually get anything moving.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 13:01:11 GMT -5
I'm no gun advocate, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the "lax" gun laws.
Do you think criminals will care if guns are illegal to own? No. They will find ways to acquire them in any case. Look at the War on Drugs for an analogy.
And don't pretend the UK doesn't have shootings. And, further to the point, the UK is infamous for all the stabbings that occur. Think about it -- you cannot stop murderers, sadly some will always succeed no matter what.
Maybe it would be more worthwhile to examine what motives clinically sane individuals to commit such acts instead? Banning guns nationwide doesn't stop the problem, does it?
At least there isn't an argument on here yet about how movies or video games contributed to this.
The guy was an unstable man; he would have found a way to harm society regardless.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 14:39:52 GMT -5
I'm no gun advocate, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the "lax" gun laws. Do you think criminals will care if guns are illegal to own? No. They will find ways to acquire them in any case. Look at the War on Drugs for an analogy. And don't pretend the UK doesn't have shootings. And, further to the point, the UK is infamous for all the stabbings that occur. Think about it -- you cannot stop murderers, sadly some will always succeed no matter what. Maybe it would be more worthwhile to examine what motives clinically sane individuals to commit such acts instead? Banning guns nationwide doesn't stop the problem, does it? At least there isn't an argument on here yet about how movies or video games contributed to this. The guy was an unstable man; he would have found a way to harm society regardless. he wouldn't have killed as many and been news around the world had he used a knife, sure he carried it out and the responsibility lies 100% with him not the gun laws but to deny the enabling that lax laws have is naive.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 14:44:12 GMT -5
I'm no gun advocate, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the "lax" gun laws. Do you think criminals will care if guns are illegal to own? No. They will find ways to acquire them in any case. Look at the War on Drugs for an analogy. And don't pretend the UK doesn't have shootings. And, further to the point, the UK is infamous for all the stabbings that occur. Think about it -- you cannot stop murderers, sadly some will always succeed no matter what. Maybe it would be more worthwhile to examine what motives clinically sane individuals to commit such acts instead? Banning guns nationwide doesn't stop the problem, does it? At least there isn't an argument on here yet about how movies or video games contributed to this. The guy was an unstable man; he would have found a way to harm society regardless. he wouldn't have killed as many and been news around the world had he used a knife, sure he carried it out and the responsibility lies 100% with him not the gun laws but to deny the enabling that lax laws have is naive. Go ask Timothy McVeigh how many people he killed without a gun..... Let's also not forget that this nutcase in Colorado used tear gas (or the like) in the theater, as well as rigging his entire apartment with explosives. Clearly, guns are not the problem: He had the ability to kill dozens of people without or without those guns. I find it quite sad that people blame the weapon more than the individual. Society would benefit so much more from understanding the underlying psychological motives rather than banning a certain weapon. Again, banning weapons doesn't prevent someone from becoming a psychotic murderer, and therein lies the essence of this debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 14:46:32 GMT -5
he wouldn't have killed as many and been news around the world had he used a knife, sure he carried it out and the responsibility lies 100% with him not the gun laws but to deny the enabling that lax laws have is naive. Go ask Timothy McVeigh how many people he killed without a gun..... So you think he killed more than is publicly known, didn't know you where a conspiracy theorist.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 14:49:18 GMT -5
Go ask Timothy McVeigh how many people he killed without a gun..... So you think he killed more than is publicly known, didn't know you where a conspiracy theorist. What are you possibly on about? The Oklahoma bombing caused 168 people to lose their lives.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 14:53:56 GMT -5
So you think he killed more than is publicly known, didn't know you where a conspiracy theorist. What are you possibly on about? The Oklahoma bombing caused 168 people to lose their lives..... you said i needed to talk to him to find out how many he has killed which presumably makes you think the amount is different to what is publicly know otherwise you would have said google it, i would like to know why you think he would talk to me especially as he is dead, would i need to use some kind of medium?
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 15:00:58 GMT -5
What are you possibly on about? The Oklahoma bombing caused 168 people to lose their lives..... you said i needed to talk to him to find out how many he has killed which presumably makes you think the amount is different to what is publicly know otherwise you would have said google it, i would like to know why you think he would talk to me especially as he is dead, would i need to use some kind of medium? I was speaking metaphorically. I thought that was clear? Timothy McVeigh killed over a hundred more than whatever his name is from this past weekend. I'm not downplaying it, but to suggest a guns ban will prevent mass murder when an individual is so committed is beyond naive - and clearly, by his booby trapped apartment - he was committed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 15:03:12 GMT -5
you said i needed to talk to him to find out how many he has killed which presumably makes you think the amount is different to what is publicly know otherwise you would have said google it, i would like to know why you think he would talk to me especially as he is dead, would i need to use some kind of medium? I was speaking metaphorically. I thought that was clear? Timothy McVeigh killed over a hundred more than whatever his name is from this past weekend. I'm not downplaying it, but to suggest a guns ban will prevent mass murder when an individual is so committed is beyond naive. With McVeigh's sucess why did the latest attack use a gun could have killed many more had he not?
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 15:08:58 GMT -5
I was speaking metaphorically. I thought that was clear? Timothy McVeigh killed over a hundred more than whatever his name is from this past weekend. I'm not downplaying it, but to suggest a guns ban will prevent mass murder when an individual is so committed is beyond naive. With McVeigh's sucess why did the latest attack use a gun could have killed many more had he not? That gets to the motivation of the individual and only he can answer that..... Let's just be thankful that it wasn't even more terrible than it was.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 15:15:07 GMT -5
With McVeigh's sucess why did the latest attack use a gun could have killed many more had he not? That gets to the motivation of the individual and only he can answer that..... Let's just be thankful that it wasn't even more terrible than it was. evasion, lets face it the gun is important.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2012 16:59:14 GMT -5
That gets to the motivation of the individual and only he can answer that..... Let's just be thankful that it wasn't even more terrible than it was. evasion, lets face it the gun is important. Changing a gun law will not stop PEOPLE from making bad choices. Weed is illegal and tons of people still smoke daily. The laws do not dictate actions when human beings are involved. There are a lot of irrational decisions being made with or without legislation.
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Post by Beady’s Here Now on Jul 22, 2012 18:07:56 GMT -5
Again, I'm no gun advocate, but do hate the argument against individual responsibility.
To say guns causes murder is like saying alcohol causes drunk driving. Think about it.
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Post by nataliemckinney on Jul 22, 2012 22:31:25 GMT -5
Ross, I think you're missing a major point. Take away all the guns, and he will find another way to kill people. It's the fact that he wanted people dead and he found a way to make it happen. Without a gun, he would have found another way. People can be responsible with guns, or people can be irresponsible (or crazy) with guns.
I think we need to look deeper than "it's the gun's fault" type of solution. But I think also we need to look at stricter laws on punishment. My personal opinion is that we're too easy on criminals because we are too fearful of (a) rights for prisoners and (b) what if we've convicted the wrong person.
The solution is of course multi-layered, and there is more to it than that, but I think we need a place to start. NL4E, you work close enough to our Nation's Capital, and it's Sunday night... do you think you can get this put into place by let's say, Friday?
PS) For the record, I will never be a gun-owner. First and foremost, I was brought up by a hippie. Second, in my senior year of high school, there was a shooting at my school (a few years before Columbine) which left one boy dead and one boy in prison. While I thought for a long time what I experienced that day was a crazy ordeal, my husband was in the classroom where it happened. The story of what he went through is enough for me to say that there will NEVER be a gun in my home.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 2:05:13 GMT -5
evasion, lets face it the gun is important. Changing a gun law will not stop PEOPLE from making bad choices. Weed is illegal and tons of people still smoke daily. The laws do not dictate actions when human beings are involved. There are a lot of irrational decisions being made with or without legislation. read my other posts not just my retort to nl4e, he brought up knife crime which by retort was less people will be killed with a knife then he brings up bombing with his example being from 1995 somthing that is not commen, all i am saying is the gun is important in gun crime something wich i thought was self evident. You will have to point out when i said change the gun laws and gun crime will vanish.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 2:05:51 GMT -5
Again, I'm no gun advocate, but do hate the argument against individual responsibility. To say guns causes murder is like saying alcohol causes drunk driving. Think about it. a claim i have not made.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2012 2:08:30 GMT -5
Ross, I think you're missing a major point. Take away all the guns, and he will find another way to kill people. It's the fact that he wanted people dead and he found a way to make it happen. Without a gun, he would have found another way. People can be responsible with guns, or people can be irresponsible (or crazy) with guns. without a gun what would he have used? It's a question that in the US doesn't need answering because you will always have the gun.
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Post by nataliemckinney on Jul 23, 2012 19:09:09 GMT -5
Ross, I think you're missing a major point. Take away all the guns, and he will find another way to kill people. It's the fact that he wanted people dead and he found a way to make it happen. Without a gun, he would have found another way. People can be responsible with guns, or people can be irresponsible (or crazy) with guns. without a gun what would he have used? It's a question that in the US doesn't need answering because you will always have the gun. Any choice of weapons... bombs, vehicles, poison, arson... the point is, he wanted to kill people, if he didn't have access to a gun, he'd find another way.
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Post by RocketMan on Jul 23, 2012 19:14:39 GMT -5
but the obsession with guns in the states is outrageous. it makes people fear everyone
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Post by Let It Bleed on Jul 23, 2012 19:42:38 GMT -5
i find it interesting and intriguing how the rest of the world views the united states as some sort of "wild west" cowboy movie or something to that effect, like everyone's just waiting for gunfire or an attack. it's really not like that. if it were like that i would've been shot years ago.
i've personally only seen a real gun fired once, and that was about two years ago, and the gun was fired at a target at a friend's house. the whole experience was weird and very uncomfortable.
God bless.
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Post by nataliemckinney on Jul 23, 2012 22:38:21 GMT -5
/\ I felt the same way... I fired a gun at a target at my ex-boyfriend's parents house... years ago. It was a strange, uncomfortable feeling. Nothing I'd ever really want to do again, tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2012 11:01:53 GMT -5
i find it interesting and intriguing how the rest of the world views the united states as some sort of "wild west" cowboy movie or something to that effect, like everyone's just waiting for gunfire or an attack. it's really not like that. if it were like that i would've been shot years ago. i've personally only seen a real gun fired once, and that was about two years ago, and the gun was fired at a target at a friend's house. the whole experience was weird and very uncomfortable. God bless. Wow you nailed that one on the head. Not everyone owns guns in the US. In fact it is quite rare overall. I live in Texas so the average is greater here, but it's not like people pack heat all the time. Mostly just when going hunting. This whole debate about gun control is really pointless anyhow. Those who wish to kill people will do so, guns or not. We can eliminate guns, and then the explosive trade will boom. Then we can blow up the entire theater rather than one screening. The problem is with people not the weapon of choice.
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Post by tomlivesforever on Jul 24, 2012 12:46:20 GMT -5
i find it interesting and intriguing how the rest of the world views the united states as some sort of "wild west" cowboy movie or something to that effect, like everyone's just waiting for gunfire or an attack. it's really not like that. if it were like that i would've been shot years ago. i've personally only seen a real gun fired once, and that was about two years ago, and the gun was fired at a target at a friend's house. the whole experience was weird and very uncomfortable. God bless. Wow you nailed that one on the head. Not everyone owns guns in the US. In fact it is quite rare overall. I live in Texas so the average is greater here, but it's not like people pack heat all the time. Mostly just when going hunting. This whole debate about gun control is really pointless anyhow. Those who wish to kill people will do so, guns or not. We can eliminate guns, and then the explosive trade will boom. Then we can blow up the entire theater rather than one screening. The problem is with people not the weapon of choice. Yeah because if the guy had a knife he would have killed just as many Why does a man well versed in creating explosive devices still use a gun? Why not a knife? Because the gun is readily available, easy to use and deadly. Its not about eliminating these things altogether its about cutting the chances down which ultimately protects more people. 'This whole debate about gun control is really pointless anyhow' What an utterly disgraceful comment, an insult to victims and there families. You think gun ownership in the US is 'rare'? Figure's would suggest otherwise. Are you also saying there are more nutjobs per 100,000 people in america than anywhere else? That this is the sole reason gun murders and massacre's are lower in most other 'civilised' nations?
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